Siobhan Kennedy-Constanti (@science_minded) on her postpartum experience: parenting an unsettled baby, PPD & PPA, relationship, traumatic birth and her support plan for her second baby
I am so grateful to Siobhan for sharing her raw postpartum experience with us. This episode mentions postpartum depression & anxiety, traumatic birth and suicidal ideation. Please be mindful of your own mental health as you listen, and if you need to reach out for support you can contact PANDA National Helpline on 1300 726 326. We also have our Perinatal Mental Health Social Worker at Mama Matters, Samantha - and you can learn more about her and bookonline HERE.
Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini is a Child Development researcher with over a decade of experience studying children's social & cognitive development and the parent-child relationship. She's passionate about educating and empowering parents and Early Learning educators with knowledge of children's social and cognitive development by providing tips and resources to help them better understand the magic that is a child's mind.
You can find her on Instagram @science_minded and her website https://www.scienceminded.org/
Hey Mama, I have a Sleep Guide for you! For birth to 18 months, this guide is steeped in evidence and laced with compassion. And you can download the first chapter absolutely free HERE.
Are we Insta pals? If not, why not? Come and hang out at @mamamatters.au!
As always, thanks for being here- if you enjoy this poddy I would LOVE if you could give a rating and a review. It means the world to me.
xx
TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 00:05
Hello love and welcome to the mama chatters podcast. If you're keen to ditch all of the parenting shirts and want to uncomplicate sleep and parenting, you are in the right place. I'm your host, Fiona Weaver, founder of mama matters, and through honest chats with experts, and each other, will help you to cut through all of the noise and to love the heck out of your imperfect and authentic parenting. Wherever and whoever you are. You belong here. Now, let's have a chat.
Fiona Weaver 03:09
a few weeks booked up in advance at the moment but make sure you hop on and book an appointment. If it is something that you are looking for. You deserve it, you're worth it. And she is wonderful to work with. So introducing Shavon Shavon Kennedy Constantini is a child development researcher with over a decade of experience studying children's social and cognitive development and the parent child relationship. She's passionate about educating and empowering parents and early learning educators with knowledge of children's social and cognitive development by providing tips and resources to help them better understand the magic that is a child's mind. And here is our chat. Hello Shavon welcome to the podcast. I am so happy to have you here. Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's beautiful to have all of the Instagram conversations over the years turned into this beautiful fruitful opportunity. I know this has been a long time coming I think like the first time I because you will I'm very grateful you are one of the first accounts that popped up into my feed. When I had my little reflux II colicky baby who didn't sleep. And I I had reached out to all of like the
Siobhan Kennedy 04:15
sleep training ones that had sent me back these like packages and I remember thinking like, Ah, this doesn't feel right. And I reached out to you being like, what and like you just came back with so much empathy and love and made me feel very, I mean, it didn't help because his sleep was a disaster and that was a medical issue. But it made me feel so much more calm in that we were just doing what we had to do to try and survive. Oh that's so nice. And I know how that feels. Because as
Siobhan Kennedy 04:45
mum first time mom myself that time when sleep was hard I would reach out and I would just get so many this is how we can fix your problem. And then I read a book by pinker McKay and I was like Oh, that feels so nice and nurturing and everything's okay. Yes.
Fiona Weaver 05:00
It's hard, but everything is okay. Exactly. Yeah. Always remember those moments?
Siobhan Kennedy 05:05
Yes. And like I think, obviously you forget the the sharper edges of the desperation. Otherwise we would none of us would be silly enough to go back and do it again. But, but it's point like, it's really poignant and colors, a lot of our experiences, that kind of how we're received in those moments.
Fiona Weaver 05:23
I was just recording a podcast episode this morning on sleep regressions. So I googled sleep regressions to see what everybody is seeing when they Google it at 2am. And holy shit, the language that is used in all of those articles, like no wonder people are feeling so scared and worried and feeling like they failed everything. Yep. It's ridiculous.
Siobhan Kennedy 05:48
Yep. And it's tricky, right? Because I remember, I took my little one, he must have been about eight or 10 weeks old into my university to visit and see all my colleagues. And, of course, everyone asked, how's the sleep going? And it was shit, because that's how that like, even with a good baby, quote, unquote, good baby and shit. And I do remember my supervisor, and like PhD dad, he was really great in that he said, you know that babies are supposed to wake up and I'm like, I the tricky thing was, he meant it lovingly. And like he said, all the right things. But I remember being like, cool. I'm still broken. Yeah, like, and so it's not none of this is on the people how they responded, but like, not having like, all the information in the world is great, when often what you actually need is compassion. And like a shoulder who, who says a shoulder to cry on and someone who says it's really, really hard. And it's okay, you've got this. And it's also terrible.
Fiona Weaver 06:48
Yeah, the being with a Exactly. And it's really tricky, because somebody else in that same scenario might have perceived that comment really differently. Exactly that moment. That's not what you needed. And that's not what was helpful. Yeah, another moment, another lifetime. Or another person, it was, it might have been exactly what they needed to hear. So I think that everybody is on their own journey as well. And knowing that, you know, whatever. It's not necessarily what we say, like you said, it's about being there for them and hearing them and validating them that exactly. It's hard. But yep, I'm here. Exactly. Are you? Yeah, so How old is your little one now?
Siobhan Kennedy 07:28
So my little boy, he is just turned three, just turned three. And
Fiona Weaver 07:32
you are friends with number two?
Siobhan Kennedy 07:34
I am we again, we were silly enough to do it again. Silly and brave. And all of all of the above. before I had kids, I had this vision of to under two, which I don't know why I was asked why I don't I think so my so I'm one of five kids. There's my sister and my brother 18 months apart. And then there's a four year gap between me and my brother. Because that's when my grandma with Alzheimer's moved in, to live with us. And then there's me, and then two sisters who are two years apart. And the three of us are very close. And so I think in my head, I was like, Great, I'll have kids two years apart, and then there'll be close and love each other, which is not how anything works. But I had had this idea. And then we had our little boy, at the very end of 2019. He was 10 or 11 weeks old when the pandemic hit. And that was about the same time his reflux started to get really, really bad. So he was diagnosed with gastro esophageal reflux disease, which runs in my family. It's where he's third generation. Like, it's just got dodgy guts. That's how that works. But he was just so, so rough. He was up all the time crying all the time. Nothing helped. And I think I'm being a person who I've worked with newborns since 2009. So I've had I've seen 1000s and 1000s of babies. And so I was like, I get babies, I can count babies. I'm, I'm good with babies. And then I had this baby, my baby that I couldn't make comfortable that I couldn't settle him. And then he was up his best sleep, at least in the first year was a three hour stretch. And that was only for a few months. And then we hit the four month quote unquote regression. And it got a little bit worse and then a little bit better. But it was for us it was the chronic degradation of it just there was no hope on the horizon. It just kept getting hard. And then at around eight months, he woke up every half hour for two months. Wow. So that breaks a person. I broke me. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 09:50
So what did that look like from birth? Like walk me through that postpartum experience? And what that looks like to have a baby who like would he just not settle that entire time that first night
Siobhan Kennedy 10:01
really kind of screamed himself to sleep, and would wake up crying. He fared really well. For him. Thankfully, breastfeeding for us was pretty easy. But that was the only time he got relief. But it was also what made his tummy hurt. So it was his like, double edged sword of once he once he didn't, he did start to do some breast refusal about three months. And that's when we started meds. Which helped but didn't fix, obviously, because it's a complex system. But I think is what like, if it's easy to say, but I think if the pandemic wasn't there, things would have been better. Because part of the problem was our along with so many people around the world, our support system was completely taken away. And it was also hard because they were literally around the corner. But my grandmother moved in with my parents. And so back in the early days of like the pandemic, everyone was worried we were going to kill each other. So we were worried we were going to hurt my grandma. And then my grandma and my parents were worried they were going to hurt the baby. So we did as much like contactless visiting as we could. But it just meant that people weren't around. So they didn't see how bad things were. And I think in an effort to feel like we were on top of things, and as well, you wouldn't know this. Like when it's your first baby. You don't know what you don't know. No. So that's that was our normal. So like, yes, it's really hard. But everyone has everyone says it's hard. This is really hard. So we didn't have a proper appreciation of just how rough things were until I think my mom sat me down. She's like, right, walk me through what happens at night. Like you could tell me blow by about you have to tell me exactly. And I was like, Oh, look, he wakes up every like half hour to an hour. She goes no, no. Is it every half hour or is it an hour? And I was like, she's like, Can you can you guarantee an hour? I was like, Oh no, certainly not. You should like so it's every half hour. And I'm like, usually she goes what does that mean? I was like, sometimes it's 20 minutes. She's like, okay, so you can you can guarantee 20 minutes. I was like, Yeah, I can guarantee 20 minutes. And she's like, that's not normal. And I then I got defensive, like, don't tell me my baby's not normal. Of course, he wasn't normal. He was unwell. But then my mom forced me to the GP, lovingly, basically just put me in the car and drove me there.
Fiona Weaver 12:29
Well, how old was he then?
Siobhan Kennedy 12:31
I think about eight months. Wow, that's
Fiona Weaver 12:34
a long time.
Siobhan Kennedy 12:35
It's a really long time.
Fiona Weaver 12:38
And but you said he's martyred meds earlier?
Siobhan Kennedy 12:41
Yeah, he started meds around three or four months. And I think it was like, it was a, it was a slow burn, like I was the frog in the pot of water. That like we slowly turned up the heat. And when when it's a slow and graduate like gradual degradation of things you don't realize, because it's only a little bit worse than it was last week. Yeah. But if we'd gone straight to that, I would of course have gone well, this is problematic. Yeah. But yeah, and then my mum had kind of been our GP as a family friend who we've known for 20 plus years. And she'd kind of been in Korea saying she's not doing well. She's not managing. And she's like, you're sure I'm sure she'd reached out to me like she knows she can. Anyway, and she walked into the office, and our GP saw me. And I was determined that I was going to tell the story that mom wasn't allowed to talk for me. And my poor mother in hindsight, like the pain on her face. And so I was trying to tell our GP the story of how things were. And I couldn't form sentences, my brain was so fried. And afterwards, she's like, You are a husk of a person. Like I knew straight away that it was as bad. So yeah, we left that appointment. I was and I was I was also suicidal. And so I was on bed rest and suicide watch for three weeks. And then up to my meds to crazy levels where I was just a zombie, which in hindsight was helpful. Because I was just zoned out immediately night weaned my little one, which he actually responded really well to, because he was just in pain all the time. And then we ended up getting a prescription for melatonin for him because we saw asleep pediatrician. And we subscribed the whole situation and he was like, he's a very healthy boy. But his sleep is that's disastrous. That's not good for him. And he responded so well to it. Like within a week, he was doing five and four and five hour stretches. Wow. So wow turned around really quickly, which was actually all of the hope that I needed because the part of the reason the wheels fell off is that I just lost hope that it would ever get better. So the fact that it recovered quite quickly was an absolute blessing.
Fiona Weaver 15:01
Yeah. And had you experienced depression or suicidal thoughts prior to motherhood?
Siobhan Kennedy 15:07
Yes, I definitely had. So I have a history of depression and anxiety. And I think so, in high school, I had a big bout, which was kind of my first proper experience, but not proper. But my first one that I could point to, I've always in hindsight, I've always been a bit anxious, like bit a bit anxious, I've had kind of the hallmarks of an anxious child. But as you would know, back then we didn't have the language for that kind of stuff. Children, didn't they children were happy or sad. That's how that's exactly. Well behaved. Oh, naughty. Exactly. And I was a well behaved drug. So it was yeah, for them for the most part. And then, yeah, I had grade 12. But then it was kind of easy to be like, Oh, grade 12 hard. So I was just responding to the pressures. And like, yes, that's a part of it. And then I had another batch in uni. So I think as well, and those both of those experiences were very, like the depression side of depression, anxiety. Like there's a little bit of anxiety sprinkled in, but my postpartum experience was very anxiety focused. So going into pregnancy and postpartum everyone in my family kind of had we had our ESP pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, whatever. Yes, we were all on alert for luxury ones at risk of postnatal depression. So everyone keep your eyes peeled. But it didn't present that way. It presented as like black and white thinking as trying to control everything as a really sensitive nervous system. So we didn't we, and myself included, everyone's like, Oh, she's so crabby. Like, she's so snappy. She doesn't tolerate anything. And then again, we're like, oh, that's what happened. Yeah, like pretty soon. What's going on? Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. And it sounds like your mom was quite proactive in getting you the care you needed. Yes. And whether you liked it or not. Exactly. And I feel bad. We, again, like there was so many factors and COVID was a big one. Because she had been in like mentioning to both me and my husband. Look, I don't think things are going great for you guys. I think you need a bit more help. When can I come over? And we're like, We're fine. We're fine. We're managing. And we weren't. And my actually, part of the impetus was that my mother in law called my mom and was like, I'm worried about them, what do we do? And then I think that was kind of the fuel that my mom needed to be like, right? I'm not crazy. Other people are seeing this too. Let's jump on this, which I'm eternally grateful for, of course,
Fiona Weaver 17:42
how was your husband coping?
Siobhan Kennedy 17:45
He, we've talked about it a lot. So he says that I am i He's right, that I either wouldn't tell him what was going on. Or if he asked me like, it's fine. And I think it was purely, I was white knuckling it. Just like it things had to be fine. Or, like we couldn't admit, I couldn't admit that they weren't. Because the alternative wasn't tenable. Particularly because during COVID, we didn't have an out. We just had to manage. At least that's how I perceived it, obviously. Anyway. But he, he was also managing. And then it wasn't really until maybe six months after I had started to get better that he had his own. Like he fully experienced his own postpartum mental health issues, I think because I he knew he was confident that I was well enough that he could finally let go. Yeah, and have his
Fiona Weaver 18:44
experience. That's interesting, isn't it? How's he doing now?
Siobhan Kennedy 18:49
Yeah, really well now. But I obviously felt a lot of guilt and still do about the fact that I do feel guilty, but also it's how it works. That he had to hold the fort and he wasn't, didn't have the freedom or the luxury to have his own kind of experience because he was too busy looking after me.
Fiona Weaver 19:10
And you would too busy looking after the baby exactly as today. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, what a what a wild ride.
Siobhan Kennedy 19:21
Yes. Now I had to do it again. But it will be different this time. It will be very
Fiona Weaver 19:24
different this time, completely different. How are you feeling going into this next one?
Siobhan Kennedy 19:30
Good. I'm actually feeling really good. I was very nervous. When I when we found out we were pregnant. It was planned. It was intentional. And there was a longer gap than either of us had had anticipated because of the trauma of our first experience. But there was been a lot of planning and talking about how we will do things differently and like bad communication and we've both set both mums it down and said right. As soon as you think there's a problem you have full cut bond Should I step in, regardless of what we say, you're free to ignore us? I don't think there'll be as much of a problem because my mom's already been testing the boundaries. She'll come over and do the dishes, which both of us hate. Because we're like, You're a guest in our house. And she's like, Nah, I'm gonna You say you're doing better. Let's see. And then. And then she'll do them. And I'll say, Mom, do you see how I didn't say anything? And she was like, Oh, very well done. And then then she'll say, I noticed your silence Alex, to my husband. He goes, yes. I assumed that you heard it very loudly. She's like I did. But you didn't say anything. So that's good. You get points for that.
Fiona Weaver 20:36
Oh, that's so funny. Yeah.
Siobhan Kennedy 20:40
But yes, I think is I mean, no. COVID. And even if there is another pandemic, which they won't be, but if there is a, we're well equipped, we know how to handle it now. Could we actually live closer to my mom now she's literally around the corner. So that'll make a big difference to Yeah, you've got a good little support system happening? Exactly. And I'm actually I've, I think it's next week. So there's this wonderful creator and very good friend of mine in real life since meeting on Instagram, mother up, Catherine on on Instagram, her thing is at underscore mother up, and she offers postpartum planning services. So as soon as I found out, I was pregnant, I'm like, right? I'm hiring you. And she's like, No, no, you're my friend is free of charge. Nonsense. I'm hiring you. And we've been sitting down and having meetings about just to get the brand because I did a lot of quote unquote, planning last time. But I opened my planning document, it was so vague and useless. And like things like people can help me with groceries. Whereas now it's like, you make me this meal, you do this, you pick up the car, like, just very proactive.
Fiona Weaver 21:46
So what sort of things have you put into your postpartum plan this time?
Siobhan Kennedy 21:51
So we're going to have food delivery, which we didn't do last time, I think I didn't have an appreciation that, yes, sometimes you have to eat dinner at 2pm. Because your body clock is so out of whack because you're up at all kinds of funny hours, that you do need a full meal at strange times. And what else we've got, I've got going to be spending, either someone's coming to visit me, both mum and mum in law, either going to spend a day a week at our house, or I'm going to go there, just as like someone to talk to and Someone to Watch Over Me or hold the baby while I go to the toilet or those kinds of fun things. Just to kind of break up the monotony of caring for small little ones. And then I think as well. Lots of like, intentional outings, which we I tried to do last time, but every weld shut down. So I remember having like all of these beautiful, like at the library, the baby play stuff that I never got to go to because they didn't shut everything was shut. We were our mother's group was terrible. To have a baby Cheban I know what was I thinking? Yeah, very silly of me.
Fiona Weaver 23:06
But there's no other time in the history of the world. That has been such a bad time to have a baby. I mean, yeah, outside of world wars and things. This is true. But you know, but yes. And so I think yeah, we got
Siobhan Kennedy 23:19
about Yeah, I'd started and joined all these like music class anyway. So there's, I think just an element of getting out of the house a lot more that wasn't possible and being up being more proactive about potential reflux stuff, and all that kind of things. But I've got a beautiful canvas of like, outlines. I'm doing a terrible job of selling it because I can't remember what I put on it. I'll share it on Instagram in due course. Oh, in the big one. I'm having a serious
Fiona Weaver 23:50
talk to me about the what why birth experience? Yes, yeah.
Siobhan Kennedy 23:55
So I've shared a teeny bit about it on Instagram, but basically, my first birth was long, really, really long it for lots of reasons. So my waters broke at 6am on Christmas Eve. And then my little one was born at 2pm I should know that. Yeah. 2:49pm on Boxing Day, so and I didn't really sleep between those times because I was excited and tired. And we're all like just the adrenaline of having a baby. Yeah. So long time. A really long time.
Fiona Weaver 24:35
I'm just trying to get my head around that like Christmas Day skipped. It was
Siobhan Kennedy 24:38
yeah, 52 hours of from from waters breaking to baby being born. And obviously I wasn't in like active labor that whole time. But I was having contractions on and off. And then yeah, Christmas Day. My mum brought a roast over in the morning and then we ate a roast and watch the Witcher on Netflix. While I leaked my waters all over the floor, I was sitting on a towel. This is all very glamorous. But by the we went to the hospital and went back two or three times. And then by the time we stay That in itself
Fiona Weaver 25:14
is so deflating Exactly. And then it just,
Siobhan Kennedy 25:18
it just took forever. It just took forever, the baby kept moving. And like was in position and then wasn't in position. And it just yet took a really long time. And then I had an epidural, because I was literally falling asleep in between contractions. So I wasn't contracting effectively, because that's how that my body was tired. And then I got some sleep and then woke up needing to push. But it meant, I think, as well, that it meant that we are and then anyway, I keep i so i dissociated during my labor. I wasn't present for the kind of pointy end he we had a was that due to exhaustion or better? I think, I think both Yeah, I haven't pressed I've got actually I've got an appointment to talk through all this stuff with an occupational therapist and a perinatal psychologist in a few weeks. Because I didn't think I had birth trauma. Because all of so much of my trauma is connected to my postpartum experience that I think I'd kind of brushed like, in comparison, my birth was fine compared to the horror that was the postpartum. Yeah. And then it wasn't until thinking about giving birth to this baby that I started having, like panic attacks. And I was like, oh, there's some unprocessed stuff going on. There. Yeah, exactly. And then, because I remember I've told people like, like, I had to find birth, and my husband would just stare at me. What are you doing?
Fiona Weaver 26:48
Were you there?
Siobhan Kennedy 26:49
Yeah. And I mean, to be honest, I wasn't. Because I've like, they press the red button a few times. And cause heart rate deceleration. And then he was he had when he was born, he had shoulder shoulder dystocia, which so he got stuck in the birth canal. And then his heart rate plummeted. And that's the bit that I remember not remembering. Like, I remember my seeing my midwife face drop. And she was like a very experienced midwife. And she was very confident the whole time and her face just told the whole story. She ran over slammed the button, and like 15 people ran into the room. And I remember just kind of drifting away, and then coming back in as a baby.
Fiona Weaver 27:32
Wow. Yeah. So So you still don't have memories of that section? Oh,
Siobhan Kennedy 27:37
not really. And it was reading like someone Someone asked me about the obstetrician that birthed or that was there when Timo was born, I have no idea who it was, I know that the name I can see, but I have no face or no memory of who was there. Just that there were lots of people. So yes, I can tell the story. And I think it's quite devoid of emotion, because it's, I wasn't there. But the idea of having to do it again, was really quite stressful. And then I've been talking with lots of people about it. And my husband, he experienced some, like, very intense birth trauma that we've talked about a bit, but he's a bit of an old school. And oh, man, I don't have feelings. I'm like, that's a hilarious joke. But please talk to me. And he's like, Nah, I'm good. I was like, no worries. By me. Yeah, exactly. But yes, so and then I was sitting down in processing with my mom being like, Oh, I think I could just try again. It'll be better. And she goes, it could be, it might not be. And then she said something that really flipped the switch for me, which was, she goes Shavon Alex is really stressed. He doesn't get stressed. So she's like, I think that's something to pay attention to. And I was like, Oh, this is his birth to,
Fiona Weaver 29:02
like,
Siobhan Kennedy 29:03
I'm stressed. He's stressed. We don't have to do it that way. Yeah. So I once I finally made the decision, I felt this huge, like flood of relief. And I was like, Oh, good. This is a good choice. Yeah. choice for us. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 29:19
Oh, that's awesome. So sounds like you've got a good birth support team as well. Yeah. Yeah. That's brilliant. And I'm imagining that back that back at that time, as well, when you've been in labor for 50 Something hours and completely exhausted to the point of sleeping, falling asleep between contractions, dissociating traumatic birth, all of that, and then having a baby who was so unsettled, like Yeah, you were starting off on the backfoot.
Siobhan Kennedy 29:46
Absolutely. We were we were starting on empty and then that just continued. Yeah, for a really long time.
Fiona Weaver 29:53
How did it impact your relationship with your husband during that time as well?
Siobhan Kennedy 29:57
Very poor like, yeah, we it was bad. I had, it was bad like I, we there's like we have a long history, which was really helpful like we've been together since we were 17. So we know each other very well, I know it's, it's, it's beautiful and gross because we're not romantics. And so, like, I remember when we kind of realized we were serious about each other. We both like we still like each other. What's that about? But yes, he's very lovely. I love him very much.
Fiona Weaver 30:27
That's excellent. Exactly. Good for a marriage.
Siobhan Kennedy 30:30
Yeah. important component. So I think a lot of what got us by was the shared history, rather than what we were experiencing at the time, which was pure survival. There was a lot of at least we were both in it at the same time, like we had lots of conversations about what have we done? Why did we do this? And it sounds flippant, but it's not like sitting down and having conversations about how do we get rid of the baby, we can, like, we're not bad enough for CPS to take him. And even if they do, they'll give him to one of our families. And then he's still around. Like, it was just we were both in this really bad space, which was bad in the short term, and then long term, it became problematic as we're both trying to heal. I'd say like, in the last year and a half, things have been really good. I think as soon as we both started prioritizing our own individual mental health, instead of trying to prop the other up, or like trying to look after each other and just saying, Okay, I need to focus on me before I can help you. making that shift was really beneficial for everyone. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 31:45
did you have support or encouragement to make that shift that way, you'd naturally fall into that new pattern.
Siobhan Kennedy 31:52
That's a really, I think my husband initiated it. He actually started he started going for runs for his mental health, like, he's like, I need to run, I need to move my body. That's how I'm gonna feel better. And I remember with a crying baby, getting really frustrated being like, you can't just go out and exercise. He's like I need to, and you need to also do it. He's like we have, we have the help available. We need. We need to prioritize this. And once I finally pick handedly eventually listened to him, his polite and lovely and encouraging, cajoling. I, too, started running. And so now we both pray or run now. Yeah, so it's actually it's so funny, though. I've always I was saying to my friend, and like, I'm not a runner. She's like, you can't keep saying that. Because you've run. So you are a runner. I was like, okay, yes, I suppose. I don't enjoy it. But I do. I love it.
Fiona Weaver 32:48
So is that something you just picked up? In that period? You hadn't done that previous? No.
Siobhan Kennedy 32:53
No. So it was like very much a postpartum healing like physical health mental health thing? I'm not doing it at the moment because prep six months pregnant. It's not. not conducive. Not
Fiona Weaver 33:02
no one feels like running. No, I sure some people do. But yeah,
Siobhan Kennedy 33:07
I know every now and then I'm like side of myself. And like not maybe you should be you see those women running marathons? I'm like, no, no, this special. Don't do that.
Fiona Weaver 33:16
Argue with myself about that, too. And like, all the time, you know, I'll get back into it when I'm not pregnant. And then I think or type your week. I'm still here.
Siobhan Kennedy 33:26
Exactly. Growing as human person that is marathon enough. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 33:30
exactly. I was just sharing on. My husband has health anxiety and OCD and lots of mental health stuff. And for him, he never wanted to take medication. And for him, the biggest change has been finding his own way of I think, you know, he's always done a lot of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and in a way it still is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, but he needs a bit more fight in him to, to work through his anxiety. And he's found, you know, people who are more aligned with how he wants to be to beat it, you know, not just live with it, but to beat it, and fight it. And exercise and diet and lifestyle stuff is everything for him like cold water therapy, going to the gym, like having a really almost rigid routine around health and exercise, which drives me crazy sometimes. But the last argument we had was when it was Ali's birthday in the morning, and he's like, I'm going to the gym and like, No, you're not. It's Sally's birthday. I don't want her to wake up and you're not here. And then I'm going to have to hold her off opening presents. And it's just one day like be here. And as I say, don't make me Don't make me change. But it's so challenging, more impactful. It can be when you commit to something like that, that totally Yeah. So relevant in that.
Siobhan Kennedy 34:49
So my husband is his background is Italian and his family is very focused on physical health and like exercise like it's a big part of the way their family does things. And my family is littered with disease. Not actually. But like we've we're just not physically healthy bunch. So our focus has always been like on our mental acuity. So, like, and also I grew up in house with five children. So my parents did not have time to go to the gym even if they wanted to. So the idea of like, for me, switching that exercise is not a luxury, that it's a priority has been a huge shift that I still struggle with all the time. That like going out for a run is good for my family. It's not just something it's not a selfish choice. It's, I'm looking after me, and then that's looking after the family.
Fiona Weaver 35:40
Yeah, it's a it's a hard sort of conditioning to shift, isn't it? Because especially as mothers, we can fall into this martyrdom so easily. It's what we have grown up seeing. And I struggle as well. Like, when do I have time? Like, yes, I could go and go to the gym, but then this won't get done. Or I'll come back. And I'll have to do this. And instead of just, you know, being assertive and saying, This is what this could look like, and this is what we need to happen. It's just like, Oh, it's too hard. I don't have time.
Siobhan Kennedy 36:08
Yeah, and that, and, yeah, it's like, and thankfully, my husband's that my biggest champion in this regard, like against myself, I'm often the, the one putting up all these barriers where he's like, No, there is time, you just have to make it a priority. It's okay, if we don't do X, Y, or Zed. This is more important than that. And you're like, Yes, you are, right. Like I remember reading a story about a woman who she decided that she needed to prioritize her physical health. And she's like, right, I'm going to the gym every day. And that means that we don't have home cooked meals, we have takeaway, or we have like Dining Services, or whatever. And she's like her family adapted. Because this is more important than that. And I'm like, That's a brilliant way like that. You do need to prioritize these things. Yeah. And something else can give. It doesn't have to be another task. You're responsible for.
Fiona Weaver 37:01
Yeah, it's easy to say, isn't it?
Siobhan Kennedy 37:03
Oh, of course. Yeah, I say all this currently not doing any of those things that I Yeah. So you know,
Fiona Weaver 37:11
but you know, now the impact that it can have on your mental health, is he exactly, yeah. And
Siobhan Kennedy 37:16
it was really funny because I'm, I'm a rebel without a cause I'll, I'm combative in nature. Like, generally, anytime someone tells me to do something, even if that's what I wanted to do them, having told me means that I'm not going to do it. And yeah, now you don't want to? Yeah, because I'm a rat bag. But my husband the other day, he said, So what's your kind of postpartum exercise plan? And like, I went straight to How dare you? I will lose weight when I want. He's like, it's not about the way you feel.
Fiona Weaver 37:43
Yeah. Bounce Back culture.
Siobhan Kennedy 37:46
I started out he's like, you know, it's not about that. I'm talking about your mental well being. He's like, so you're gonna start running? When do you think you'll start doing that? And I was like, I don't know. And I was like, Oh, I would think that I might take up boxing, I don't think I want to do running. He's like, you can take up boxing. But you have to run as well. And I was like, what? And then I straight away like you don't tell me what to do. I'm the boss of my body due to. And he's like, I love you so much. But you love running. Every time you start running, you say, I feel so great. Why do I ever stop this? And next time I stopped running and don't want to start it tells me I have to start it again. Yes, I'm doing what I've been instructed to do. And I was using good logic that I have given you the tools to implement. I suppose I'll listen to us. Yes. How dare you be right? How dare
Fiona Weaver 38:35
How dare he listen to you in your time of need? Oh, that's awesome that you've got some new coping strategies, though. And like you said, This experience will be completely different. Who knows what it will look like, but it will not look the same as that first experience? Well, exactly.
Siobhan Kennedy 38:53
I mean, it can't even if I had exactly the same child. I'm a different person. Yeah, absolutely. So it will be different by definition, it will be different by definition. One thing that was really helpful for me during my postpartum experience was that I never held any resentment towards my son. And I remember talking about this with my perinatal psychologists like she brought it up. She said, You don't seem to have any challenges within the relationship with your son, despite the like, intense difficulty you've experienced during this time. Why do you think that is? And it was all due to my knowledge in attachment science. Yeah, I actually found it really reassuring that that it's a long game thing that just just because we're struggling at the beginning, doesn't mean that he's doomed or that our relationship is doomed. Yeah. And so yeah, my background is in child development, psychology. So developmental psychology, I focused on zero to five. So I had a very strong academic grounding. In attachment science, and I think is one big thing that helped is that I knew that for a lot for him, a lot of it was a physical pain, like he was in pain. So it wasn't him being a bad baby or being difficult, like, you can't sleep when you're in pain. You can't be happy when you're in St. Louis. Yeah, life is hard, and we're all having a terrible time. And a huge factor is that, like I said, gastroesophageal reflux disease runs in my family. So I had an incredibly supportive mother, who had it with four out of the five of us. And so she was anytime I did kind of dip into the here's a terrible baby. Why have I been given demons born? And she's like, No, he's just in pain. So I had all of the right voices in my head and when I was falling on the floor crying because I just can't do this anymore. She was nothing but empathetic and wonderful.
Fiona Weaver 41:00
And I asked about the reflux thing, because a lot of a lot of doctors just use reflexes. You know, a baby who cries often or is, you know, colicky because colic is just that they cry for a certain period of time every day. Like
Siobhan Kennedy 41:15
colic is crying three hours, because I remember people like all your babies colicky I'm like, No, that's not what we're dealing with. Yeah, yeah. And I intentionally call it gastroesophageal reflux disease to try it. Yes. distinguish that. It's not just a bit of vomit here and there. Yes. So that, of course. So colic is crying for three out three or more hours a day, three days a week for more than three months. Yes, it's the rule of three. So I mean, he passed that test. Exactly. He's a genius. But so he would feed all the time. Like, During his period of really challenging sleep around the eight to nine month period, he would feed every 20 minutes, and a breastfed baby doesn't need to stay at night. Yeah, all the time. Like there were times when it wasn't quite that often. But that was not uncommon. And it's because the act of feeding and having so the act of sucking is physiologically calming for babies. So it would soothe his pain, the milk running down his throat would soothe the pain. But then, of course, the more milk he had in his tummy, the more he would regurgitate it, and the acid would coat his esophagus, and then it was just this nonstop pain train. He didn't live vertically, we've got a bassinet that has never been used 10 hours until the Yeah, sorry. It's horizontal. Yes, he had to be basically vertical at all times.
Fiona Weaver 42:44
So would you like to sleep with him? Like sitting up on your chest? Yeah,
Siobhan Kennedy 42:48
yes. So we and of course, I was deathly afraid of SIDS, and not falling asleep rules and all these kinds of things. And again, thankfully, I had my mother who was like, This is how you would safely it's not reasonable to expect that he will lie down he will not she's the best. She I should tell her to listen to all these podcasts because I talk her up so much. And then in person, I'm a rat bag child to her because that's how mother child relationships absolutely work. But she's the best. But yeah, so we would I would prop up that wouldn't have this setup where I was basically falling asleep, half sitting up and head. And of course, like, when, for better or worse, my nervous system was in such a heightened state that I slept so lightly, that he was always safe. I don't know why I'm justifying this. He was safe. It's fine. But yeah, so he had to sleep on someone. Very occasionally he would sleep blank, but I think it's because he just exhausted himself with crying. Yeah, which is awful.
Fiona Weaver 43:51
So he generally couldn't lie flat for those first eight months. No. And then we propped
Siobhan Kennedy 43:56
the cart, which is against all of the guidelines. But because it was literally the only way we could get him to lay on a surface, is if we kind of we had had a janky system of like cat cans. Putting at the bottom of the cup to like, angle it. Cat cans. Yeah, cat food tins, cat food tins. Yep. Exactly. Man like pillows underneath the mattress to prop it up. Don't try this at home. No, definitely don't try any of us. It was terrible.
Fiona Weaver 44:26
But it's a it's a thing that you speak to that, you know? Yes, most babies don't love to be put down and lots of babies prefer to sleep on parents. But there is a difference between that. And babies who are genuinely in so much discomfort to lie flat at any point.
Siobhan Kennedy 44:43
Exactly. Yeah. And also like there was an element of if we did lay him flat, he would just vomit everywhere. So he'd just be like lying in his vomit, which is that's not that's not safe either. So it was Yeah, once once we realized that it was a complete catch 22 We very much switched to Ni, again, my GP and my mom from the beginning, like I, I, quote unquote, admit that I was co sleeping. And they're like, Of course you are. Yeah, you have to survive, otherwise you would be dead. Exactly. Yeah. So that, again, like lots of education and support on how to do it in safe ways. But, yes, again like this, these are half memories, because it was such a blur of a time. What we're talking about, Oh, good. Yes. So he saw he was on low sec for the first two years of his life, which is a protein pump inhibitor. There's lots and lots of controversy over it. We have no qualms or regrets about him going on it. I think particularly in the States, people say it's an over diagnosed, condition and medication. Because they are, this is the tricky thing. And like there's all this research and lots of pushback about this particular medication, because it is related to depression in teenage years. However, gut issues are related to depression and mental health issues in later years. Because we know of like the brain, gut connection. And you have to wonder about babies who are genetically predisposed to gut problems. Maybe they're genetically predisposed to mental health challenges, correlation. causation. Exactly. We don't know all of these things. And I have a friend whose little girl has really rough reflux as well. And she called me up saying, the doctors prescribed this medication, what do you think? And we, she's like, I know your little one was on it. So we did all gamed out all the things. And she's like, what I'm hearing is that a potential mental health challenge in 20 years, isn't worth us pushing through the trauma and the pain that she's currently experiencing. And like, I think that is a very sensible summary of what I've said. And it's, you have to get through the now we can't worry so much about the future, particularly considering Australian teenagers one in three of them have severe anxiety or depression. It didn't help.
Fiona Weaver 47:14
Yeah, yeah, it was definitely the right thing for you and your family, it but reflux is over diagnosed, isn't it? Like, your son clearly had very true reflux, the way that you describe it, because I can't say all those words.
Siobhan Kennedy 47:32
Technically, technically, most babies have reflux in that reflux is sped up, that kind of any regurgitation can count as reflux. So it, it all comes down to how you how you experience, and I guess this is true of any condition, physical or mental, is that so much of the diagnosis relates to how does it affect functioning? Because someone can be a really, I don't know, like, maybe an anxious type, but it doesn't at all impacts their day to day life, in which case, it's like which you guys, I mean, you say this and the sleep. People say this all the time, and it's so true. If it's not a problem for you, then it's not a problem. However, if it is substantially impacting your daily life, then that's when you need to look into doing things differently. Yeah, yeah.
Fiona Weaver 48:21
So you have a PhD in child development. Developmental Psychology? Yes. What did you I'm always curious, like, what did you do your specific PhD in, of course, I
Siobhan Kennedy 48:32
looked at I was looking at imitation. So in so to give a little bit of history on developmental psychology, in the kind of 50s and 60s there was everyone was behaviorism, in that babies are just just as clever as pigeons. If you teach them to do this, then they will do like, you just have to condition them in the right way.
Fiona Weaver 48:52
I've read a lot about behaviorism and whatnot. I've never heard that babies are.
Siobhan Kennedy 48:58
So many of the behaviors and studies are done on pigeons, because pigeons are very compliant. Babies aren't at least not in my experience. Train well. Correct. So you can train anything, you can train a fly. So of course, you can train babies, not not to say that's a good thing to do. But you can do it. And so a lot of kind of the psychology and understanding at the time of babies and their brains is that we're born this blank slate, and everything we bring to them like it was very much nurture. Yeah. And then in the 70s, this guy Meltzoff came along and said that babies imitate from birth. So it was this idea that they are born with this predisposition for social interaction, which I believe that they are, however, they're his results, and it's still a highly debated topic in in the field. His results have not been able to be replicated. So my PhD was part of an ongoing replication attempt, and we weren't able to To replicate it, but we tried to train babies to imitate to see if they can learn.
Fiona Weaver 50:05
So is this is this the whole that babies will stick their tongue out from birth with exactly them and that wasn't able to be replicated?
Siobhan Kennedy 50:13
No. So I was one of these big multi year study, and we haven't been able to find it. I did do a small study that hasn't been published because of lots of reasons. But we train, we got mums to practice with them and turn it into a game. And if we did that, then they would imitate. So a lot of my age are three weeks old. Wow. So a lot of my research was tied into the idea that the mother or I looked at moms, but the parent baby relationship is a dynamic feedback loop process, that babies are influencing us just as much as we're influencing them. And it's this beautiful dance. And that to look at it as a one sided thing is not beneficial or helpful. So I was the title of my PhD was the social, I should remember this. I don't remember very early social development in the context of the mother baby relationship.
Fiona Weaver 51:09
Hmm, amazing. Yeah. So I
Siobhan Kennedy 51:13
went into the houses of one to three week old babies and their mums, and I'd visit them and cuddle babies and then hand the back once they got grumpy, or did a poo. So it was all of the good stuff and none of the bad stuff. And yeah, then looked at lots of data sets for a really long time. And most of my results were null effects. I didn't find anything, per se, which
Fiona Weaver 51:40
is disappointing as a researcher, or is that just part of the,
Siobhan Kennedy 51:44
for me, it wasn't disappointing, it was disappointing, knowing that it would be very difficult for me to publish.
Fiona Weaver 51:49
Okay,
Siobhan Kennedy 51:50
so the this was almost 10 years ago now. So it's a different landscape. Now, it's much easier to publish findings that are now than it used to be. But it was actually exciting because I was, at least in my mind, my I was lending evidence to the idea that it wasn't what we thought it was. But it was challenging in that I'd go to conferences and me as like a little postgraduate student, I'd get snubbed by these big names, who staked their whole career on arguing. Like, there's just so much ego in, in research and academia, which is hilarious. And part of the reason I left because everyone just gets so hung up on these tiny threads that I'd be like, you know, that there's genocide going on. Like, this doesn't matter. Yeah. But yeah, people get really, really into stuff.
Fiona Weaver 52:43
I can imagine, though, if you've, like you said, dedicated your life's studies to
Siobhan Kennedy 52:48
like last ditch whales, and like lots of untoward behavior.
Fiona Weaver 52:55
Wow, really? Yeah. Yeah.
Siobhan Kennedy 52:58
Yeah. Like I'd have the episode. I know, I know. But I'd have like these amazing side facet, Amex. Yeah, I'd have these amazing professors, professors that have made it conferences and I talked to them, and then they'd look down at my nametag and realize who I was and what papers I'd been on. And then they just stopped talking to me, because they realized that I was from the other side. And I'm like, but I really want to talk to you. I respect your work.
Fiona Weaver 53:19
Wow. Yeah. What a shame.
Siobhan Kennedy 53:22
Yes. But then in my postdoc, I moved into some other less controversial stuff. So that was helpful. But to gain really looked, exactly, I really loved the academic side of things. But I think there were lots of reasons that I moved out of it. But I think a big part and part of why I love my Instagram stuff so much is that it felt very disconnected from real parents, and the kind of help that I could actually do in the world. Like, the way I remember thinking about it one day is that if I'm really lucky, a few of my papers might be written into a textbook that someone might read. And they might tell a parent about it one one day, almost like the tongue poking, study, right like that, that you know of it in passing, but like, I didn't have the impact that I was really hoping for. Whereas doing the more like, research translation stuff that I do on Instagram is so much more rewarding. Like helping parents what like what is reasonable to expect of a two year old given their brain development, much less than reaching the
Fiona Weaver 54:31
right people to versus reaching other epidemics? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, given what we know about your postpartum experience, your early experience with your son, knowing what you knew about attachment and bonding, how did your postpartum experience impact your attachment with your son in hindsight, and one you might have known at the time?
Siobhan Kennedy 54:57
At the time I didn't have any like to either ill feelings towards him or stress that we weren't going to have a loving and healthy relationship. I did. In hindsight in the conversations I've had with my husband and my parent, both sets of parents, they've both mentioned that part of the reason they stepped in is because they were worried that he was starting to go off the tracks a little bit that they, from their perspective, they felt that I was distancing myself from him. And that once we once every once all our interventions came into place that they saw things turn around quickly, what does that look like?
Fiona Weaver 55:36
Could you just describe what you were I?
Siobhan Kennedy 55:39
I don't really know. Because they haven't been too specific. But I think that, at least my mom was probably the most specific, but she would say that I would be a bit dismissive of him, like if he would reach out or try to cuddle me that I wasn't as quick to respond, as she would expect, I would be given what she knows of me. And she said that once things started to get better, that she saw the shift. And she was very reticent to tell me that, but I'm glad that she did. Because that's really helpful to know, that it kind of was in not in danger. But that things. I mean, all of these things have effects can't not have had that experience and not have it affect our relationship. I don't think it does. Nowadays, we talk about it with him and not that it really goes into his head. But we talk about how you, when you were a baby, you cried a lot, because you were very sick, and that your brother might have that too, like he might be have a sore tummy and he might cry a lot. But we'll do what we can to help him. And my nephew, who's four and a half has 18 months older than my son, I remember hearing them have a conversation one time this must have been about a year ago. So he would have been three and a half and my son would have been two. And my three and a half year old nephew said, when you were a baby, you didn't know how to sleep. You tried, but you couldn't do it. Oh, that's accurate. Yeah. The family law has has trickled down to the little ones. And they're telling the truth of it. But yeah, so I think and we now have a beautiful relation, like I love him to death. He's hilarious. As I know, noxee is a wild child in the in the best ways. And I hear the most wonderful stories about him too. But yeah, no, things are good. But I, I think really knowing that just just because our experience now in our relationship now in the depths of the postpartum depression and anxiety, just because it's really, really hard now doesn't mean that's what our future looks like knowing that. So you knew that at the time. Yeah. Yeah, I knew at the time that attachment is malleable, that it changes, yes. That it's all about the relationship and the relationship at the time. That obviously it taps into the history of the relationship, but that he can always change and get better.
Fiona Weaver 58:05
And even you talking to him about it now and really age appropriate ways is repair as well, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. rupture. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. So you think that your experience with attachment psychology really helped you?
Siobhan Kennedy 58:21
Yeah, I mean, you're definitely in those I think as well, like my growing up, my brother had the worst of the reflux in the family. And we grew up hearing stories about how hard it was with him as a baby and my sister I was, I wasn't born yet. But my sister, who was older, remembers that he just cried and cried and cried. And we'd always hear the stories of mum saying to Aaron, I'll get I'll get some I'll get your lunch when the baby stops crying and Aaron stamping her foot saying the baby never stops crying. But then speaking, when I was experiencing it, I watching my mother be very traumatized was really interesting. Like she was clearly reliving her own experience. And like she would tell me at the time that this was so similar to my brother, and that it was really eerie, how similar it was. And she, like she had told us that there were times where she would be too rough with him like not dangerously, but that she would put him in the cot roughly and walk away because she just couldn't handle the screaming anymore, which is very vulnerable and open and really helpful. But then, like she started to share things that I'd never heard about how in the 80s She went to the doctor with heart palpitations, she thought she had a heart condition when my brother was a baby because her heart was just racing. And that her shoulder she had shoulder pain that she couldn't. And in hindsight, these are like psychosomatic things of postnatal depression and anxiety. And I remember saying that to her and she was like, Yeah, I'd never thought of that, but that's probably exactly what it was. and having that dialogue, and really like what felt like that safety, that haven of someone who not only like sympathizes with me, but knows so much of the experience, because it was really hard. Like people would say, I'd say, Oh, he's got reflux, He doesn't sleep well. And people would be like, Oh, babies don't sleep well. And like, you don't get it. Yeah, it's in. Yeah. And like, again, they're not trying to be, but they just don't know my experience, and how much I wish I had people like, but you always had your makeup done. I'm like, because I was holding on to any thread of control. Like, I was trying to just be in control of anything in my life. And if that meant I had eyeliner on that day, that was how I felt like a human person. But having my mom who really was able to be there and be like, I know, it's the worst. It's terrible. It won't always be terrible. Was really, and it's not terrible anymore. It's great now.
Fiona Weaver 1:01:02
Yeah, tell me tell me about your son now.
Siobhan Kennedy 1:01:05
I it's just the best. I feel like a gushing parent. But I guess that's you asked me so it's your fault. He's just the best. He's hilarious. He's cheeky. He's going through what my aunt calls the throttle some threes. Where he are, like, just put up put honey on my WeetBix No, that's too much, honey. No, don't put any milk and my weight backs because then the honey will dissolve. And so he eats dry wheat packs lie
Fiona Weaver 1:01:34
you in. So why are you so incompetent mother? Yes. Yes. My Requests very clear.
Siobhan Kennedy 1:01:39
I know this morning. This morning. I want I want butter and honey on my toast. So I went to do that. He saw me dip the knife into the honey. What are you doing? Putting some? I didn't ask for that yet. Okay. Sure you did, though. But change the mind. That's It's fat. You're fine to change your mind. You are so silly. What did you do that for? I'm just trying to see the funny side of it whilst operating on little sleep. Because we wake up at five o'clock because of the birds. But yeah, it's just hilarious. But then he's also just the best. We drove through the tunnel to get to my mother in law's because she's looking after him today. And he's just going wow, it's orange, just like you like because I love orange warm lights. Because you love orange lights Mummy. Oh, bless. Yeah. And then he goes, this is wild. I love tunnels.
Fiona Weaver 1:02:38
Isn't the enthusiasm so beautiful?
Siobhan Kennedy 1:02:40
It's you just want to pocket it? Yeah, save it for eternity.
Fiona Weaver 1:02:44
I completely agree. My daughter. She's just turned four. She's going through a real diva phase. You she doesn't get the thing she's asking for she's like, You're the worst. I hate you. We have a dramatic thankfully, so skyping and when I'm feeling resilient, and everything's going well, I'm like, Okay, I still love you. And that, you know, probably bothers her just as much but she then if I don't say anything, she's like, I know you hate me. Just twist the knife. When other times were like Enough Enough with the hate you I was sick of the hate you like it's constant. It's just you can't talk to us like that. Then the next breath will be like, Okay, I still love you.
Siobhan Kennedy 1:03:29
Yeah, yeah, it's, we've, we're only I don't want to like, touch what I have to touch all the word. Because at the moment, it's not that bad. But it's kind of knowing where it's headed like that. This is just the beginning of those big feelings. Where it yeah, he just will get angry and scream in our faces. And it's like, you don't you don't get to treat us like that. Yeah. But also, like, I know, you're going through a lot, but it's still not okay.
Fiona Weaver 1:03:55
I know. And oh, and it really depends on how you're going in that day as well at that. Absolutely. You know, getting it right 30% of the time is is good enough. And exactly. If they know in their heart of hearts, we're not going to design them because they tell us that they hate us. But sometimes we're just sick of it and done with it. That's okay. Yeah, I have loved this chat so much and you love funny thing is I invited Shavon on here to talk about attachment science.
Siobhan Kennedy 1:04:27
Here we got a little way late. That's the definition of a beautiful conversation.
Fiona Weaver 1:04:30
I didn't know you had this very rich experience to share with us and I know that listeners will find it really valuable and especially inspiring to hear you being going into your second pregnancy with confidence and with hindsight and support networks and everything like that. So I'm really really grateful to you to for sharing your experience today. So thank you so much. And we're gonna have a part two Shavon talking about love chat.
Siobhan Kennedy 1:04:56
I would love that I'm a total attachment nerd for those who Don't know I, partly partly on Fiona's recommendation, I recently trained to be a circle of security facilitator. And it's, even though I had all of this background and like the academic understanding and theory of attachment, the circle of security has completely reframed so much of what I know about attachment, what I know about child development, and how I see daily interactions with caregivers and babies. It's really like flipped things in a beautiful and magical way for me, so I can't wait to talk more on attachment with you.
Fiona Weaver 1:05:31
Yes, you're speaking my language. Thank you so much for being here today. Shavon. Where can people find you? Of course, I'm
Siobhan Kennedy 1:05:38
on Instagram at science underscore minded. I do lots of science translation on child development stuff. And technically, I have a tick tock science on a school minded to tick tock, but I don't I think I've done like five tic TOCs ever, because I'm, I feel like I'm too old. To but I mean, I'm sure I'm not. It's just confuses me.
Fiona Weaver 1:06:00
Yeah, I always have a go and then pull out again. Yeah,
Siobhan Kennedy 1:06:03
yeah, that's pretty. Yeah. But yeah, mostly Instagram. I've got a website, science minded.org. Where you can check out bits and bobs that I've got over there. But and you run sensory classes in Brisbane dying? Yeah. So mostly at at the moment, it's just at daycare centers. So I do daycare incursions. So I go into centers and work with babies zero to two years and educators trying to instill little snippets of attachment stuff where I can. But yes, I do that. And it's actually so it's so bloody delightful. I get to kind of babies a lot. Yeah. And then play with them and watch them learn and grow and explore. And it's, it's awesome.
Fiona Weaver 1:06:40
Yeah, that'd be amazing. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here. And good luck with your pregnancy.
Siobhan Kennedy 1:06:47
Thank you. And we're born. Yeah, a few weeks apart.
Fiona Weaver 1:06:51
Yeah. I know. We can exchange notes.
Siobhan Kennedy 1:06:54
Yes. In the middle of the night. Yeah, exactly. Thank you.
Fiona Weaver 1:07:00
Thank you so much for listening to mama chatters if you enjoyed this episode, let's continue the conversation on Instagram at MAMA matters.au. Be sure to share this app with your family and friends. And don't forget, if you liked it, please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again and I will see you next time.
