Hannah on the sleep obsession, when 'gentle' sleep approaches is anything but, the need to know all of the things and coming out the other side
Hannah is a real-life mama who I met through my Mama Matters Academy. Today I am so grateful to her for this honest chat about her experience with a prem baby, how the sleep obsession can sneak in, and being taken for a ride with sleep consultant programs. Hannah talks about tuning into her intuition and coming out the other side with fierce confidence.
Hey Mama, I have a Sleep Guide for you! For birth to 18 months, this guide is steeped in evidence and laced with compassion. And you can download the first chapter absolutely free HERE.
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As always, thanks for being here- if you enjoy this poddy I would LOVE if you could give a rating and a review. It means the world to me.
xx
TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 00:09
Hello love and welcome to the Mama chatters podcast. If you're keen to ditch all of the parenting shoulds and want to uncomplicate sleep and parenting, you are in the right place, through honest conversations with experts and each other, we will help you to cut through all of the noise and to love the heck out of your imperfect and authentic parenting. I'm Fiona, a social worker by trade. Now supporting families with sleep and parenting through my business mama matters. I'm passionate about parenting psychology, biologically normal infant sleep and infant mental health and attachment. I'm also a parent, and I am on a mission to normalize the shitshow that can be parenthood. I know that right now you might be trapped under a sleeping baby. Or maybe you've got your headphones in to soften the blow of the afternoon witching hour, wherever and whoever you are, I want you to know that you belong here. Now, let's have a chat.
Fiona Weaver 01:08
Hello, my love's I'm so sorry, you missed me last week. As you know, I'm sure you did actually miss me mourn for me and grieve me, whatever that might look like for you. But the technology failed us on our interview. And I was trying really hard to get something in its place. But I just thought you know what, this is my own deadline. It's okay to fall short sometimes. And I want that to be a message to you as well, it is okay to drop the ball. Sometimes it is okay to fall short, you do not need to live up to everybody's expectations. So as much as I want to live up to your expectations, I'm sorry that I didn't show up last week. But here I am with a really really, really great interview with my friend Hannah, who was in my mama matters Academy earlier this year. She speaks really openly and honestly about her journey with sleep how the obsession began, particularly in in the context of having a premature baby. She's a nurse, she likes data. She likes stats and research and how that kind of sent her into a spin with sleep and how she came out the other side, it's actually a really empowering chat as well. So I'm really excited for you to hear this. It's also the launch day of doors open for Mama matters Academy. So if you resonate with this story, if you would love to find your community of like minded mamas who are questioning the mainstream sleep advice and want to pave your own way and learn more about biologically normal infant sleep, how you can support sleep without sleep training, please have a look at my mom matters Academy website, join the free webinar. And I will really, really be excited to see you on the other side. I can't wait to welcome a new cohort of Mama's into our group. So I hope you enjoy this chat. Please reach out if you do resonate with today's talk because it's really vulnerable for somebody to come on here and open up their heart and their story with you. So I would pass on anything that I hear back to Hannah. So please let me know how this lands for you. And enjoy. Welcome, Hannah. I am so so happy to have you here.
Hannah 03:18
Thank you so much for entrusting me with your baby.
Fiona Weaver 03:21
I'm just so grateful that you are here to be open and honest and to have this chat because I have been so grateful for you all through this journey since you joined the academy. When was that years ago? Probably a couple of years ago. was
Hannah 03:37
a year ago. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 03:39
And you've been? Yeah,
Hannah 03:40
I think I do. Yeah. About No, not even a year, Mount 10 months. Ah, but I've probably been DMing you a lot longer than I think
Fiona Weaver 03:49
we've been connected for years. Well, I'm excited to talk to you today because we are going to have a very honest chat about what sleep has looked like for you over the years. You have Remi who is to next week, who next week. And I I'm really interested to hear how your story has been since pregnancy postpartum, and how you've navigated sleep around that time and where you've come to now because people just want real stories with real people with real kids. And I'm really happy to have this chat with you.
Hannah 04:25
Thank you. Thank you so much. Hopefully it resonates with at least one. Maybe two people resonate with
Fiona Weaver 04:31
me. There you go tick. So tell us about yourself. Who are you who's in your family, where do you live?
Hannah 04:39
So my name is Hannah. As you said, I live in Brisbane. I live with my partner of seven years Michael. And as you said we together have a little nearly two year old boy Remy and completing our household we can't forget to mention is our beautiful forlag All right. And what else? What I do by trade? I'm a, I'm a qualified nurse. So I've been a nurse for nearly 12 years now.
Fiona Weaver 05:11
Have you been back to work since you've had Remy?
Hannah 05:14
Yes. So this is all happening at like a big transition pays for me. So I'm a bit fried. I started back, literally last week, and I've just had my first two shifts on in a clinical environment on my ward after Yeah, two years of extended maternity leave. So how's it feel like, yeah, overwhelming, but also, yeah, embracing that sort of grace period with change. Like, I just yeah, it takes a bit of time to feel and your new normal? I think so. I'm just sort of waiting for that to settle. But yeah, it's a big change. For me. It's a big change. For me. It's a big change for our household. Yeah, it's been, but it'll be good. It's good for me to get back into that environment. And even just being back on the floor. You know, I realized I do miss. I do really miss that patient interaction. And yeah, using my brain in a different capacity. Yeah. So it's been nice. And my my work colleagues are fantastic. Oh, that's them.
Fiona Weaver 06:22
It's just an adjustment, isn't it? And like he said, When it becomes your new normal, I really liked that balance of having time at home with my kids and time away. In my job, yeah. Once everyone was settling period can be brutal. Yeah, yeah,
Hannah 06:39
absolutely. And just holding space for that, I think is important. But we Yeah, relearn everything. And thankfully, Remy has transitioned into daycare. Really, really? Well. Yeah, that's all the same prep work that we did. But yeah, it's been great.
Fiona Weaver 06:54
Awesome. So what was your experience or your journey, like in becoming pregnant with Remy? And take us back?
Hannah 07:03
Um, yeah. So in terms of being coming, like my journey into motherhood, like when I was reflecting on it, obviously, in a bit of preparation for this, I really, like I'd sort of forgotten, like, I do have generalized anxiety. So I always was really maternal, but I had this big fear around becoming a mum, like, I thought that it would be way too overwhelming. I just didn't value that I could do it. And it was when we then decided to conceive like, I was still quite anxious about it. And it was a bit of a journey. Like I came off the pill, it took a while for my cycle to return. And unfortunately, a little blip in the radar was that we had ended up having to have a blood test. And the GPS saw misinterpreted the results and called me in and basically said to me, Look, I do actually think that you want to have kids because this is pretty much saying to me that, you know it's gonna be really difficult for you to conceive. And like that hadn't really entered my mind. And I was so blindsided. Thankfully, I got into a specialist like, a day later who was like, No, that's not what's happening here. Goodness, but I realized that, yeah, I realized at that moment how much I actually wanted to be a mum. So I really held on to that feeling. And yeah, a couple of months later, I did fall pregnant. And I still get a bit teary. But I ended up having, like an early term miscarriage. Which again, no one prepares you for the it's a ride on its own. And so yeah, that was pretty heavy. And what complicated it was I, a couple of days later, we actually ended up losing our golden retriever, like really, quite tragically. And so in this space of a week, I had these two really big losses that were just consuming. And I thought, No, I can't do this. But the light in that darkness was that Remy was conceived not long after, and I truly sort of now feel like it all kind of led to him. So yeah, that was a roughly like a rough start.
Fiona Weaver 09:20
That's a really rough start when you already have this self talk that this is too hard and overwhelming, and I can't do this. And then these messages saying, We're gonna make this harder for you. Yeah. Is that sort of what? Yeah,
Hannah 09:37
I remember when we lost our dog chair. And I looked at Michael and I said, like, I'm just failing. Like, I failed the baby. I failed here. And yeah, like that notion had already set in my mind that like the common denominator was me. And that's not true. But that's what my it was all out of my hands. I actually couldn't control any of it. But that's how I was feeling at the time. So yeah, going into pregnancy. Just time I think and like I do have a really good awareness of what I'm saying to myself, how that's making me feel and what probably reality is, and I just have to sometimes give myself grace. And just Yeah, yeah, try and redirect my focus and my talk myself talk. But it can be really hard in the moment. Yeah, it can be really hard to do. But I think it's been something that I've practiced for quite a while. So. And yeah, I think having that awareness of it helps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like, I kept myself very like, plateau for quite a while, like, we didn't really tell anybody for like, quite a while, like, no, no, like, still at the first trimester or a bit later. But yeah, I held it pretty close to me, probably out of a bit of fear. And it wasn't really until I think I got to that point where I knew an embryo like the baby was viable, like a 2324. Mark. Week, Mark, that I sort of breathed a bit easier. But yeah, and then I think certainly that late second trimester, third trimester. Although, yeah, the experience was bumpy. It became a little bit easier, because each day, he was more more like, likely to survive. I think in my mind, it was very clinical. Yeah. So yeah, like, I think my pregnancy was pretty typical like was pretty quick. For the first and most of the second trimester. I had like one little incident where like, My heart went into a funny rhythm. And I ended up in emergency and funny rhythm while I was at work, so I'm standing backstage, like, I can't quite like I was rubbing my chest. And I, like, obviously, look quite flustered. And two of my work colleagues were like, You arrived, I was like, my heart is beating really fast. And we've obviously got access to like ABS machines and stuff. And they checked my abs in though like, you've got to go to emergency like, I've slipped into like a rhythm. Yeah, right. And it was my first day. So also, during my pregnancy, I had been successful in gaining a full time position as the acting nurse unit manager. So I had been stepping into this major, like job responsibility. And here my heart was on my first day. But I still thought that I would just walk down to emergency, get an ECG, and then walk back and keep working. But I ended up in hospital all day and then being under the obstetric medicine team for a while, but none of it. Yeah, right. Right. And what else? If so, yeah, that was sort of a second trimester. By the third trimester, I had started to say to people, I reckon he's gonna come early, you know, like, I don't know, I just had this feeling this gut feeling he was going to come early. And everyone would kept saying, it's your anxiety, like your anxiety. Like, I just really feel like my body is prepping them to come early. And lo and behold, at 32 weeks, I was hospitalized with threatened preterm labor. I was given a 45% 14 45% chance that he was going to be born in the next 48 hours. I Yeah. So I ended up in hospital for three days, I had all of the they monitor you had IV, im steroids. Some tablets that I had a horrible reaction to, unfortunately. But yeah, it was monitored, and nothing progressed, thankfully. And this was all in 2020. So this was as COVID was unfolding. So, you know, I didn't realize when I fell pregnant that I was going to have a baby during global pandemic. And that just adds like a whole different layer to pregnancy and birth and motherhood. But yeah, I was discharged after those three days with no follow up. No.
Hannah 14:32
Nothing really. And I was like, what happens down though, I will just see you when you have your baby. And I was like, oh, okay, so this is not happening.
Fiona Weaver 14:41
I feel a little a little uneasy for you.
Hannah 14:44
It really did. I will say, though, that one of I was, you know, thinking about this. I did a few things during pregnancy that worked out so wonderfully for both me and Remy. What and our experience One of them was that I chose to do my midwifery care privately, but birth publicly, so I was linked into a midwifery surface and saw them regularly. And when this happened, I saw them weekly, basically, and I'd gone from second weekly, so they had wonderful structure face to face. So much good support, you know, access to 24 hour midwifery care. So whilst from a public hospital perspective, I felt abandoned a little bit. I had this really great support at my hands. And so yeah, they were fantastic. But they had some, you know, like did scans and follows up and measuring above and stuff like that. And actually, they sent me for another scan because he was measuring pretty little. And I saw a really old guy who did it. And you know, I said, I'm really worried he's gonna come early. And he said, not not a chance his baby's coming before 36 weeks. I was like, again, I felt like it was just me being in my head, being anxious. So that was the Tuesday and my waters broke on the Saturday. I was 35 weeks and Remi came Sunday. So he was born at 35 weeks.
Fiona Weaver 16:19
Yeah. So
Hannah 16:21
after that we did we just under two weeks and special care when he was born,
Fiona Weaver 16:27
we which is a there with him.
Hannah 16:31
At no discharge. So I was discharged. So I was expected to discharge 24 hours after birth. And something I didn't prepare for was, you know, like, I had this attitude. And I said it out loud. And I honestly just think it was me and denial. His people, like I would say, you know, if he comes early, it's not like he's going to come home straightaway. So like, because we were very unprepared like I'm a procrastinator. So I was going to do everything on maternity leave. We didn't have a nursery car seat. Anything really. But nothing prepared me from the moment he was born, that I would have this like, and it's hormones, but this magnetic pole to him. The thought of leaving him was just inconceivable to me like, I was like, What do you mean, I have to leave. And obviously I knew I couldn't stay in the hospital for the entire time. But I also just couldn't comprehend, not being there. And so I was really thankful they gave me two nights in hospitals. You know, I was still 35 weeks that gestation. I got two nights before I was discharged. And across the road from the hospital where I burst is apartments. And I said to Michael, I have to stay there. I can't be driving back and forth. I won't sleep like I have to be I have to be near him. And that's what I did. I stayed at the apartments, and I spent most of my day in special care. And then and Michael would be there as much as possible. And then I would go home and probably have like, maybe a five hour gap. And then I'd be back in the hospital. Yeah. So I was pretty much there until that 12 one and then I'd go home and then come back by six seven. Yeah, it's such
Fiona Weaver 18:26
a it's such a crazy thing that we still expect mums to go home and leave their baby. There. It's so it feels I haven't been through it. But I imagined that it would feel so wrong. We need to be able to support mums and babies to stay together and how much is you know, having mum there with the baby going to help the baby's growth.
Hannah 18:50
And also like having that skin to skin you know, getting your milk production like I was like, What am I supposed to do like everything. But one of the other things. Like I said before I did some good things was that I actually identified that breastfeeding was going to be important to me and I knew that it often didn't come as easily as we hoped. So I linked in with a ibclc lactation consultant antenatally. And so I had an appointment a week before Remy was arrived. And so when when Remy did come early, she was such a fantastic resource in navigating special care, because there's rules around he was a late term Prem so he wasn't I wasn't eligible for the same support as some a baby that had come before 34 weeks. So I was a week out. He was about 3433 I was a week out of getting quite a different support response. And you know, I knew breastfeeding was important and you don't and milk was available, but we weren't allowed it without quite a decent And five, which we which we want, but that's yeah.
Fiona Weaver 20:03
She helped you.
Hannah 20:06
Yeah, yeah. Because when you're in it, you'll like last time you need that person to help you navigate and
Fiona Weaver 20:13
to know how the system works. Yeah, yeah. I'm not
Hannah 20:17
familiar with like that environment. Yeah. So we spent 12 days and he ended up. Brisbane went into COVID lockdown during that time. And so Michael and I were separated in special care. We had to wear masks, like, again, from a nursing perspective. I, I understand, but as a new mum, trying to look at my, like, he was two kilos at birth, like trying to, like feed him. And you know, where? Yeah, it was just really hard to not have Michael and like Michael, and I spent a lot of time together with him. So not having Michael there with me, was really tough. And it got to the point where I said to that we said to them, you need to tell us what we can do to get out of here. Because we were sort of taking the lead. And we yeah, we we negotiated an earlier than normal discharge based on showing them that we could do this and we knew we had supports and what to do if anything deteriorated. But yeah, so we left hospital, he wasn't even two. I think he just he wasn't he was still below his birth weight when we left hospital. But Brisbane was in a lockdown. And we just basically came and isolated ourselves at home for 10 weeks until he was a normal sight like a normal, like three and a half kilos, I think before we sort of started to venture out. Yeah, so like I described, like my birth was like at the time, like I said, I would say to anybody, it was magical. It was such a magical experience. And then now I look back at it. And I think I missed a lot of warning signs that it was actually like a pretty traumatic experience. With like, just a lot of stresses around it, but I just, I didn't really I didn't appreciate it at the time,
Fiona Weaver 22:06
which is probably a protective strategy. Yeah, I think we were at
Hannah 22:13
100 person. Yeah. Yeah. didn't serve a purpose there. Yeah. Now it's like, a healing process. I think. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 22:20
And what what what, what is what does that healing process look like just reflecting on it or speaking to somebody about it? Or?
Hannah 22:28
Yeah, I think reflecting and, you know, like, a lot of like, for quite a while I've been thinking, you know, how much it would serve, to like, speak to somebody and work through it. And like, just hold space for that grief, because it's gonna get to this point, everyone's like, when you having a second when you having another one? And just the feeling of like, but what if I have to relive that, again? Has sort of shown me that like, I haven't sort of fully processed it. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 22:57
needs a bit more space. Yeah.
Hannah 23:00
Which is the journey on its on its own, I think.
Fiona Weaver 23:04
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so tell me about that early postpartum time. Then once you do get home from the hospital isolation for 10 weeks. Yeah. How did that work for you?
Hannah 23:17
Honestly, it's such a blur. Like, we lived in this like, third hourly cycle of like, feeding pumping. He had like quite severe reflux. So sitting upright, settling, changing, restarting, so it was like a 45 minute gap between this whole process that started and I just ran on adrenaline the entire time. I didn't really like we were here rest resting, but like, there was none of this like newborn bubble of like sleepiness. Yeah, he just to gain weight is sort of what we needed to do. And that was all I was focused on, was establishing breastfeeding, gaining weight, plumping him up, you know, protecting him as much as possible. So yeah, like I honestly, it's a blur. It's that Pierre that first probably eight weeks is a bit of a blur for me.
Fiona Weaver 24:18
Were you doing weighing him regularly? Or were you taking him somewhere?
Hannah 24:23
So again, like, as I said, linking in with that IBL ibclc was just so was like one of the best things that we did, because she then we, we accessed her for that first 10 weeks with, you know, weekly appointments, weigh ins, top up plans, so I started using like a supplemental nursing line. I was expressing, like, we were managing all of that with his weight. And then at that 10 week point, she was like, okay, like, we can now go to demand feeding. And I remember being like, brilliant like what don't have to do it every three hours, I can just go by his cue. Yeah, it was like, two hours on a date. And he was like, No, I need more milk now. And I was like, wait, what? Yeah, so we did it in conjunction with her, like, fully supported by her. But our priority at the time was weight gain. And so there was a few things that sort of flagged during that period. So Ram has quite a had quite a severe tongue tie, which I realized, and she confirmed, but it wasn't her area of expertise. So she sort of referred me on to two different things like a pediatric dentist, and updi. Be pediatrician. And we saw the pediatrician first. And he completely dismissed the impacts of a tongue tie, and sort of laughed at us. So I didn't really have any other capacity to I just sort of pushed that aside. Retrospective retrospectively I wish that I had focused on it because I can, in hindsight, see, it contributed to a lot of things but well, I suspect it contributed to a lot of things. But, you know, at the time, we were being assured that it was a ridiculous notion, which makes it hard, right? It's
Fiona Weaver 26:12
so hard when you're already new and learning and people aren't hardest lessons. Yeah,
Hannah 26:19
I couldn't. I like I had to let some things go. So anytime someone was like, Yeah, don't worry about it. I was like, Okay, put it to the side. Focus on survival. And I couldn't I couldn't absorb anything at the time. More, I don't think but and you know, we got there at the end. But yeah, so about a at about eight weeks, Ram started to have like quite severe gut issues. So he started to poo. Like, a lot of mucus. And, you know, he was really reflux. He he was incredibly colicky, just screamed, and I couldn't figure out what was going on. It was really tough. We'll get into the sleep stuff. But you know, he started cat napping at eight weeks. But yeah, so that was a bit of a journey. And which of which, what's come of it is that he's got dairy and soy intolerance. And plus, I think there's tongue tie and he had reflux, which it was just so much going on gut wise, that just added to the complexities of having this little tiny pram and trying to, like mentally navigate. Everything was like pretty tough.
Fiona Weaver 27:32
Yeah, well, you had all of that plus locked down plus special care nursery plus scares in pregnancy plus loss.
Hannah 27:40
12 When I at 12 weeks, I got hospitalized with appendicitis
Fiona Weaver 27:48
that time so what better time to get appendicitis Good on you and was able to stay with you in hospital or was that separate?
Hannah 27:58
Separation so it's the longest I've actually been separated from him in his entire nearly two years bad. Because we had been doing all of this pumping and feeding and stuff like that. I had frozen breast milk that he could bottle. So Michael took the reins confidently while I was in hospital back recovery after that, even if, like laparoscopic surgery. Like they told me I wasn't allowed to pick him up. You know, I had to I couldn't put pressure on my belly and it just didn't really work.
Fiona Weaver 28:30
Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, that is hard. You had a bit.
Hannah 28:36
My milk supply tanked, obviously. And that was such a stress. But
Fiona Weaver 28:39
yeah, you don't do things in house. No. Okay, so let's talk about the sleep stuff, then what was happening around that time for sleep? Hang on, let's go back a little bit. What were your expectations of sleep? Or was sleep on the radar? Before you had him? Yeah.
Hannah 28:59
Yes. So like I said, I did good things in pregnancy. And I did some not so great things from us. What they're not so great things were I, again, identifying that sleep. I didn't in any capacity, think sleep was going to be easy. So I felt that if I prepared myself and I did a lot of research and understanding and learning that I would be better prepared for it, and I'd know what to do. And I, you know, as a perfectionist, I'd you know, have everything done properly so that like I'd give him the, you know, best opportunities to succeed. Never once did I factor in that he was going to become coming early, or what that would mean. So I started following and I won't name names but I I started following like quite a large American sleep training account. And I deep dived her content and natural During the algorithm to my socials changed, so I then was bombarded with, like sleep training pages, which led to like some of the Australian sleep trainers. So I followed them and yeah, like I entered post birth with an established fear around the four month sleep regression particularly. And I was really confused by a lot of it. It didn't feel right to me what I was reading, but I again, I put it down to just me being anxious. Maybe it would be different when he arrived. And then, yeah, like, I think I just I let it sit subconsciously. And it had quite a big impact on me in motherhood. The other thing that I will mention we did was I, I deep dive this like this new bassinet. And so funnily enough, like the principles that they represent, like the five S's did actually feel a bit more like homely to me. So like the shushing the swaying like all of that. I was like, Oh, of course, babies would love that. So I convinced Michael that we needed one. And we bought a secondhand one. And yeah, I don't know, sage, though. I will say Did we ever expect it to replace us? Which I think some people maybe do. And we also limited it like, as soon as he was arrived, like it never actually got past like, stage two, like we one of us would respond to him. We never let it work its way.
Fiona Weaver 31:42
Yeah, you know, let it do the soothing for ya. Ya know? Yeah.
Hannah 31:48
So but actually, like, I will say, I like I think he quite liked the noise and the movement, but it made no impact on his sleep. Yeah. You know, I, you know, secretly what I was hoping for it to achieve. I think it didn't do anything like
Fiona Weaver 32:03
yeah, when you read the testimony, settings. Hey, like, this is gonna be a magic bullet. Yeah. And the
Hannah 32:11
lady I bought it was like my baby was sleeping through by 12 weeks because of this. And I was like, Oh, my goodness. Fantastic.
Fiona Weaver 32:19
I just have one more week left.
Hannah 32:21
Yeah. But yeah, I think based on like, what I had consumed antenatally. And then my postnatal experience. Our focus was on Remy weight, gaining weight and breastfeeding. Yeah, our focus was on weight gain and breastfeeding. So at no point did we start to No, at no part did I like implement any sleep strategies. But I felt my anxiety doing this huge spike, the closer we got to the end of this fourth trimester. The closer we got to this four month sleep regression, the more anxious and stressed I became about sleep. And again, like, what, what was I doing wrong? That was that was my monologue. Like I was the one failing like, I couldn't. I don't know how like it just yeah, it came about me.
Fiona Weaver 33:23
Because that's the messaging that we receive. If you do X, Y, Zed, if you follow this routine to a tee, if you follow the settling strategies, then this won't this won't happen. So if you if you if it's not working, then you're not doing it. Right.
Hannah 33:38
Yeah, and 100% That's the subconscious subliminal message being sent. And I don't think it's something that we speak about, because, you know, I don't think you openly share, like, Hey, I think I'm failing. But I think that it's probably like quite a common feeling when you have a baby that just doesn't meet this mold. And like, as I said, when we started cat napping from eight weeks, and I was looking at these things being like, babies should be having like, two, two and a half hour naps or something. And I was like, he's sleeping 28 minutes on the dot. How is his brain gonna develop? Like, like, always, I was so stressed. And it was all about his welfare and his development. And it Yeah, like the fact that he wasn't meeting these big long naps. And these overnight sleeps and yeah,
Fiona Weaver 34:24
how is that going to impact you? Yeah, yeah.
Hannah 34:28
And, you know, obviously, like, there's just so much messaging about independence, and the future independence. It's like, I'm gonna raise this child and he's never gonna be able to be by himself. I had that part of me. And then I had this other like rebel part of me that just felt like this was not right. I was super internally conflicted. But I couldn't pinpoint why. Like, I couldn't pinpoint why. I remember feeling like I was standing in this room and like, it was such a strange feeling. I was like, Is anybody I was questioning, questioning this, like, is it just me like, everyone else seems to be like going along with it. And like, even so many, like, medical professional like all these like trained people, these Instagram influencers and they're like collabs with sleep trainers, like, why am I the only one sitting here questioning this? Like, it must be me. It must be me. I'm the common denominator. I just think that unfortunately, I was I had headed myself down the wrong path. And it was tough.
Fiona Weaver 35:36
I remember feeling the same. Like, am I the only one who is seeing holes in this? That inner
Hannah 35:42
voice? Yeah, there's something in it. And it's much easier, I think, particularly when it's not the social norm, to just downplay what you're, you know, that internal monologue, that feeling that you're feeling? It's much easier to push that down and be like, okay, like, let's look at the outside and everyone else is fine. And then it is to be like, advocate for yourself and be like, No, I don't like this doesn't feel right to me. Like, it takes a lot of confidence, I think to
Fiona Weaver 36:11
follow that path. Yeah. And like we said before, it's it's our own journey as well. Like, we have to go through the shit to realize where our values lie. And to become confident in that. That doesn't happen overnight. You don't just suddenly think, Oh, I'm gonna be confident in that.
Hannah 36:25
Yeah, no, not exactly right. And, you know, now I sit two years out, and I have a lot of hindsight. But I have that because I went through this experience and those feelings and those thoughts, and it has all played out the way it's meant to be.
Fiona Weaver 36:40
Yeah. And probably because Remi is who he is, as well. If Remi had been a very easygoing chilled out predictable routine he baby, then you might not have gone down this path of questioning everything because you'd be like, Yeah, we get work.
Hannah 36:55
Yeah, exactly. And he moves none of those boxes. So which is I think, common, like a, like a common experience, if you have a baby that's, you know, sensitive or different, you know, but none of that is spoken about No, like, none of that was in those black. There's no individual, you know, asterisks like this. But if you read the Asterix down the bottom, like maybe your babies this, this and this, it's like, no, no, it's just yeah, this is what it is. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 37:26
You're obviously not.
Hannah 37:29
Yes, oh, my god, the wife. I'm like we did after my appendicitis I went, you know, I that was my breaking point, I will really acknowledge that that like, I broke after the appendicitis. And I went to the doctor, and I said, like, I need medication. Like, I'm not coping with this. And for her, I'm very thankful that she said, like, you've just had like quite an acute thing happen. Like, let's give yourself a week. I don't think we should start medication yet. But like, there are services that can help you. But in the sit in the next breath, when I expressed to her that I was worried that, you know, the fourth this, the four month sleep regression was coming up, and how would I handle that? Just naturally, she said, but that's what sleep schools are for. So like, we can train him to sleep, like don't worry about that. And I was like, I don't think I'm not really sure that that sits well, either. Um, so that like, that was just her. That was her response. So like, yeah, I didn't know that any of it was maybe normal. Or okay.
Fiona Weaver 38:34
Oh, there's a lot to unpack there. Yeah. That's a whole other. Yeah, that's, that's a lot. It's and again, takes you away from your confidence, doesn't it? It doesn't say, Hey, we've got you, we will hold you and your baby. It's we'll put your baby here and fix that up, and then you will feel better. So further reinforces that. Yeah, yeah. We'll make him more convenient. We'll make him easier, and then you'll be okay. Yeah, yeah. Once sleep is okay. You'll be okay.
Hannah 39:02
Yeah, there was no real value on like, as we had sort of, like, just kind of highlighted, like, maybe just the real traumas of like, the past 12 weeks. Are my pregnant, you know, like, No, I there wasn't a lot of emphasis on that.
Fiona Weaver 39:17
Yeah. Yeah. So when did things shift for you? With the sleep stuff? Like what, when you did start seeing through the Yeah, mainstream sleep advice.
Hannah 39:29
Um, I will say like, prior to this. I like to purchase one of those sleep training, PDFs, and like, you know, the first 12 weeks. So I purchased that and I like studied that. And I was doing everything wrong in terms of sleep associations and bad habits and stuff like that. And obviously, we weren't meeting any of the targets or the schedules, but I was really confused because what was on like social media seems so are gentle. And so like understanding and then with the program, I got access to a private group. And that's when it really started to feel a little bit icky for me. Because what was sort of being discussed and said, didn't really align with anything, I would turn gentle. And I started to be like, This can't I can't do this. And I was always bargaining for like a later date. Like, I can't do this now. So we'll just wait till the four months sleep regression or like, no, no, that I've read that maybe six months. So like, and I just kept clutching it like, I'd find a solution that would sit a bit better with me, but I like definitely, really found it confronted. Did
Fiona Weaver 40:43
you feel that it was something that had to do at some stage? There was no avoiding? Yeah,
Hannah 40:48
yes, like I but I kept just pushing that to that date of starting back and back. And a part of me was like, it doesn't feel right. And you need to feel real. You need to figure out why it doesn't feel right. Like I couldn't just sit in that limbo state. And so I think around for months, I don't know how, but somehow I think it was Rachel it Hey, sleepy baby got recommended. And maybe it was with the four months a progression, I don't know. And I remember opening her account. And it was like a weight was lifted off my chest. And I was like, I could breathe and like suddenly there was somebody out there, like articulating how I felt all I have is paying my baby and me. And like suddenly I started like I saw that there was this shift that maybe it wasn't my fault. And maybe there was reasons for this that like, he wasn't meeting these, like molds that I had been trying to fit him into. And like, I haven't sort of mentioned but like I was driving myself crazy in dark rooms, shushing and padding, and, you know, trying to figure out how to make him link his sleep cycles. And, you know, convincing Michael to spend so much money on these 100% blackout blinds, because that's what would make him sleep. And, you know, I was really starting to snowball. And this was all before actually, like, I guess, I guess that means that like, in some capacity, like I had started to implement, like some basic sleep training stuff, or like I was trying to fit that. I guess I was fine. The thing is all of the right things. And then yeah, I found Hey, sleepy baby. And I think not long after that, actually, she shared one of your like, one of your reels that like the anti rear. Yeah. And like I laughed, obviously, I thought it was funny. And I went to your profile. And I didn't really even deep dive, but I saw that you were a Gold Coast base. And I was Brisbane based and I followed you because I thought if it ever gets to the point where I need help, you're local, right? And if Rachel if ACB baby is promoting you, then I'm sure you somehow like fit into like maybe a little bit more my direction. And this is when it changed. So around that four or five months for me like, because I started to follow these accounts before I started to like, click on other things, my Instagram algorithm started to change. And so I started to see more and more stuff that was normalizing for me sleep habits and what he was needing. And yeah, like it took a while. Like it definitely took a long while. But like I just yet I felt such a weight shift off my chest, just having access to like something that permitted me to like maybe take a bit of pressure off myself.
Fiona Weaver 44:03
Yeah, I think what you were saying before as well. Something that articulates what you are feeling, like validating your instincts and like you feel this instinctual pool to respond to your baby and that all of this stuff feels a bit icky. But you can't put your finger on it because all of the information and resources you have point towards this is what you just have to do. And this is how it goes. This
Hannah 44:26
is normal. Yeah. Like this is Don't question it. Like this is what you're doing and mechanism. And then yeah, yeah. You're not. Yeah. And then you find this whole other side and you're like, wow, and from, like nursing perspective, understanding like, biologically normal behaviors and normal infant like mental, like neurophysiology, like, it all really clicked to me. And it just made sense. Like, from a like I'm talking from lack of real anatomy physiology point of view, it made sense. And I was like, like a rat. And then it's just grown from there. In terms of Yeah, like the, I guess the information that I consumed,
Fiona Weaver 45:13
did you? I didn't,
Hannah 45:15
I didn't delete. It wasn't until mama man like I did that and then my academy and did my final call and that was at 14 Man,
Fiona Weaver 45:24
was it so you're still following them? Why was it just juicy? Or was there a part of you that you could get some nuggets out of there?
Hannah 45:33
No, you know what it was, was that I was angry. I was I was misusing my energy. I was really angry at this, these accounts normalizing like promoting this. And like, I couldn't quite figure out how to like respond to it. But I wanted to keep my finger on the pulse to I don't know. Not that I ever sent angry messages. Like I never actually went through there. But I was like, I'll tell you.
Fiona Weaver 46:02
I get it. Yeah,
Hannah 46:05
but for sure, it's been the most freeing thing to get relief.
Fiona Weaver 46:11
So you've have you done a cow now? Do you still follow?
Hannah 46:14
Yeah, yeah. No. So we called the closest that I get to it is like, like in like influencers or people with like, a bit of a following, like, talking about sleep training, or like collaborating with sleep trainers and stuff. And now I've learned to notice that I'm getting triggered, and to take a breath and just step away from it and consider if it gets too much to mute those accounts unfollow those accounts. But I'm glad to have a lot more consciousness around my reaction.
Fiona Weaver 46:51
Yeah. Good on you, girl. So just want to circle back just quickly, because we've had this conversation but not again, awesome. But we have had this conversation before today about how so many of those accounts like like you said, appear really gentle on Instagram. And then you get in there once you pay for it. It doesn't end up being gentle. But was there the same thing that you felt in the fourth trimester, carry your baby, respond to your baby feed on demand, do all of these beautiful things, but then by four months, something's happened. And now you've wrecked everything. And now everything is your fault. Did you feel that?
Hannah 47:29
Yeah. Yeah, I 100% felt that I felt so conflicted. Because, yeah, like they these like more like, promote themselves as gentle, holistic. They really do focus a lot on the fourth trimester, just being about like cuddling your baby and absorbing your baby, but also just being really careful about your net your sleep associations. And, you know, you want to start gently starting to try and put them down Andres drowsy and awake, but like they're just waking up, there was so much confliction in it, and I was so confused. But then there's this real fear about the four monthly progression. So in my mind, coming to the end of the fourth trimester, and the start of your fourth month you go forward. And why you had four weeks to set yourself up. Because if you hadn't set yourself up having a baby that self settled or had good sleep hygiene practices, that four months a progression was going to be all your fault. And you know, it was going to be as bad as it was because you hadn't done the hard work. Yeah, is basically I say, this is how I feel. But I do feel like how it's promoted and spoken about. Yeah, but yeah, they will disconnect between the two. Like, you only get 12 weeks to absorb your baby. And then it starts Yeah, then it's go time. And also, let's not like I never, I didn't really spend a lot of time forgetting that I was actually five weeks behind in terms of gestation, like, you know, like, I didn't give myself any grace periods. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 49:07
true. Ah,
Hannah 49:10
which was really fun. I
Fiona Weaver 49:11
keep talking to you, because I could talk about this stuff a lot. But I'm really, really thankful that you have opened up this conversation because I think so many people will relate to. It's almost feeling like you've been taken advantage of with the sleep stuff, because you've been led down this path of things that just don't feel right. And then, like, it's only natural that you're going to feel angry about that. I think a lot of us have some anger about what we've gone through. Yep,
Hannah 49:39
I think so too. And I think my anger is not just for me, but like for upcoming new moms and people that like might feel the same way that I felt and I feel responsibility sometimes to like change that. But then I realized like, you know, as you said like everyone's on their same the same journey and It's sometimes the best thing I can do is by really normalizing my experience and being quite confident and you know, we breastfeed we bed share we feed to sleep.
Fiona Weaver 50:15
The wrong thing. Dog is on your lap.
Hannah 50:22
Yes, I Yeah. So I'm really open, I don't hide any of it. And I say it with a confidence because I am confident in our choices. And if I'm certainly not saying that that's what everyone should do, but maybe there might be someone around that is doing it and feeling really alone and guilty because they feel like they're doing the wrong thing. And so if that helps somebody feel less alone. Like that helps like I you know, I hope I've helped somebody. Yeah, like we're the polar opposite edge now. Yeah. And that works so well for us. So well, far.
Fiona Weaver 51:05
Yeah, it's amazing to get to the other side as well, isn't it and when the anger kind of subsides a little bit like you sort of balance out and feel confident in what you're doing? You know what? You know, you've got your bullshit radar. Pretty strong. Yeah. And you can be in a place where you can talk about it confidently, you can support people with they want your support, but you're also not, you know, what's the word being intrusive? Like? Yeah, yeah,
Hannah 51:34
yeah, exactly. I said, I definitely like thinking about how I approach the topic, because I don't want anyone to feel that I'm judging them for what they're doing. You know, I understand it's hard. It is really hard. But I also want to like advocate for normalizing the messiness of sleep, and like the different sleep needs, because I knew nothing about temperament, sleep needs sleep pressures, how like medical stuff, so like all remedies, gut stuff, how that impacted site, like, none of that was in my mind, when I was feeling like such a failure. Yeah, but all of that 100% is why like, you is the reason Remy sleep presented the way it is, like, he wants close proximity, he needs safety and security. He's, you know, very attached, you know, he needs that. And I'm okay, honoring that, and that works for us. And, you know, I think knowing that, you know, I surround myself with good support. And if things don't work anymore, there are people aligned with my values, my beliefs that can help me through that, you know, and I haven't had to really need to do that yet. But I know that I have access to support when and if it no longer works. Absolutely. It's not like suck it up, surrender, you're done. It's like, you know, you can have the balanced you can do what works for you. And if it no longer works, there is support that works with your ethos. So yes,
Fiona Weaver 53:09
there's so much room in between so much room in there. Yeah. And it means that we don't have to segregate mums either, you know, sleep training versus monthly training. It's not like that. It's so much more complex than that. And humans are wonderfully complex, and relationships are wonderfully complex. And we need to honor all that space in between. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. I'm so grateful. I know you don't want people to come and find you. But
Hannah 53:41
even I wouldn't even know what my instagram handle.
Fiona Weaver 53:45
If anybody wants to chat to Hannah, reach out to me, and I will put you in touch. So thank you so much for sharing your experience. We are so so so lucky to hear your stories. I thank you.
Hannah 53:56
Thank you. And I will take just a second to say like, thank you for all of the work that you do in this space. It means so much to like just me but like and you know, so many mums, you just have to look at the Academy page to see how valuable you are as a resource. So thank you, thank you really helps my experience as a mum you really have
Fiona Weaver 54:23
it you're gonna make me cry. Well, I feel the same about you because you have been so supportive along the way and I'm so grateful for people like you being in my academy, so thank you, all you Mala thank you so much for listening to mama chatters if you enjoyed this episode, let's continue the conversation on Instagram at MAMA matters.au Be sure to share this app with your family and friends. And don't forget if you liked it, please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again and I will see you next time.
