Honest Chats: Rachael Shepard-Ohta (Hey Sleepy Baby) and Mariana Castaman on where we are going so wrong with sleep
Grab a cuppa and join us for our honest chat about all the things we have a problem with in the mainstream sleep industry. We chat about: - Rach and Mariana's personal experiences with sleep training - How sleep programs win us over with 'gentle' then end up being not so - The unnecessary divide between sleep training vs. not sleep training and how much room there is in between - When 'trust your intuition' feels overwhelming and impossible - how trial and error can help us to find our confidence - How Rachael plans to approach sleep with her third baby Rachael: @heysleepybaby Mariana: @marianacastaman We have so much more to talk about - join us for Part Two, soon!
Hey Mama, I have a Sleep Guide for you! For birth to 18 months, this guide is steeped in evidence and laced with compassion. And you can download the first chapter absolutely free HERE.
Are we Insta pals? If not, why not? Come and hang out at @mamamatters.au!
As always, thanks for being here- if you enjoy this poddy I would LOVE if you could give a rating and a review. It means the world to me.
xx
TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 00:09
Hello love and welcome to the Manage chatters podcast. If you're keen to ditch all of the parenting shoulds and want to uncomplicate sleep and parenting, you are in the right place, through honest conversations with experts and each other, we will help you to cut through all of the noise and to love the heck out of your imperfect and authentic parenting. I'm Fiona, a social worker by trade. Now supporting families with sleep and parenting through my business mama matters. I'm passionate about parenting psychology, biologically normal infants sleep and infant mental health and attachment. I'm also a parent, and I am on a mission to normalize the shitshow that can be parenthood. I know that right now you might be trapped under a sleeping baby. Or maybe you've got your headphones in to soften the blue of the afternoon witching hour, wherever and whoever you are, I want you to know that you belong here. Now, let's have a chat. Hello, my love's I hope you are well, you are going to love this chat with Rachel and Mariana. Rachel is as you know, a sleepy baby. And Mariana also works alongside Rachel with a sleepy baby. And this is a very informal shoot the breeze kind of chat, where we talk about our gripes with the sleep training industry and our own experiences with our own babies and how we are working together to shift the dominant narrative about baby sleep. So I hope you enjoyed this chat. We have already talked about coming back for a part two, where we will do a q&a session. So we'll pop that on the stories when that happens. But yeah, enjoy. Today, I just want to have a chat like I want to I'm really excited to talk to you guys. Because we have had like Insta relationships for such a long time. Obviously, in the same business, we have had the same training. And then we've also had lots of different training as well. But I'm just curious to have a conversation about how postpartum was for you how your sleep journey was. And yeah, kind of how you came to be so passionate about this work, because I think we all have our own journeys of how we got here. Are you guys good to go? Yeah, just went into that like room. That's perfect. I'm your drink first.
Mariana 02:24
So I'll get you to introduce yourselves. First. I will start top left. That's you Mariana. Okay. All right. So I'm Mariana and I'm a mom. sleep specialist. Infants and Toddlers specialist addresses educators circle of security facilitator. published out there. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 02:46
Yeah, hang on and sky back. Outdoors. Isn't that cool?
Mariana 02:55
In my mother tongue is in Portuguese. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Congratulations, writing. Yeah. That's I've been like I worked on this book, basically for about almost, yeah, for four years. Yeah. Before I started all the sleep training. Not sleep training. But the training to work with sleep. Yeah. Let me clarify. Yeah, so yeah, this sounds to me,
Fiona Weaver 03:31
isn't gonna be published in English as well.
Mariana 03:33
I'm not sure yet. Let's see how things go. And if the editor will think that that's a good idea, but in Portuguese has been really amazing. Like people were so receptive to this information. Especially because in Brazil, this is like split training culture is not the norm at all. But it did kind of entered our country in a way that was very, very strong. And also thinking about this work opportunity, right for moms in a country that's struggling, economically saying. Yeah, so it has been impacting the culture a lot. And although this is not the norm, I feel like it is becoming, which is really, really sad. Yeah. It's really sad, because it feels like nowhere safe. No one's safe from it. Yeah. And like the way that the information is being twisted, and things have been pushed into mothers in such a vulnerable moment. So yeah, so I decided to write the book because I didn't feel like I could keep up with both like both Instagram accounts. As you guys know, I have a hard time being consistent posting on my Instagram page. So imagine doing that twice, like in two accounts. So I decided that the book will be a good way to share the information, talking about my experience as a mother. And
Rachael 05:22
yeah, and just literally give people choices. Because I think that's what's missing like us knowing about the options that we have. Yeah, that's the sad thing, isn't it? When people think they have no other way. There's only one way and when do we do it? And how do we do it not? Do I have to do it? Or do I want to do it? Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Okay, Rachel, who are you? Hello, I'm Rachel Shepherd OTA. So I am the face of hate sleeping baby on Instagram. And so yeah, I am a sleep specialist did a lot of the same trainings as you girls, and I'm finishing up a breastfeed or education, breastfeed or education, breastfeeding, education, certification, and circle of security, parenting, certificate certification as well. And before this, I was a teacher. So all of my undergrad and graduate work was in young children, as well, specifically with disabilities. And so before I got into this whole thing, that's what I was doing. I was a teacher for almost a decade. And then right when I had my daughter, my second, I kind of just was looking for a little bit of a side hustle. And it became the main hustle. So yeah.
Fiona Weaver 06:46
So I'm interested. So you've got two kids as well. Haven't you? Mariana? Soon, too. Yeah, yeah. So what was your sleep journey? Like with your first? Is that how you came? Is that came into this work?
Mariana 07:03
Yeah. Yeah. For me, yes. It started in 2016. When I had my first child. Well, he was tough because well, as an immigrant, in a, in a different culture. It did impacted me a lot, because for example, one of the things that I think the first like, the first shock to me, was that I didn't have any priority as a pregnant women, like woman. So when I had to stand on long lines, just like any other human, and that was not the experience that we have, back in our country. We do have this, like, this support that was in a way invisible to me until they actually made it. So you don't have priority in anything. And that was like, the first chunk that I had. When I had a baby. I felt like I was just thrown back into the arena, you know, just like, go back. So you had a baby? Yeah, just, you know, just just go back good luck, like no support. The the only way to kind of solve my, my struggles was to sleep train. So I didn't have any support, like mental health support any like, I remember that I had to fill out this form. And that was it. That was like, as close as I got to feeling supported.
Fiona Weaver 08:43
Do you mean Sorry, like a mental health screening?
Mariana 08:45
Yeah, probably that like the Edinburg. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And
Fiona Weaver 08:51
do with it?
Mariana 08:53
Well, you know, I just love the form. And I don't even know if I did it. Like when I don't think I answered the form. The way I should have lots of shame, of feeling the way I was feeling. Fear to fear and it's like it's it's painful to say this, but I'm an immigrant. What happens if? Yeah, if I answer in a way that that's yeah, I don't know
Rachael 09:36
if it makes I'm not sure if other women to
Mariana 09:40
feel this way, but who take care of my kids, right. So I don't know. It could be something from my head. But at that time, it felt like I could not be feeling the way I was feeling. And the way I was feeling was that things were really hard. I had to hold my highest sense It is little one. The whole night, he had reflux, he had a really hard time laying flat. That was my my experience during the first five months of his life, he would not lay flat for 30 minutes, like, never, he cried a lot. And I felt that I was doing everything wrong. And when I was browsing on the internet, back in 2016, the only solution was to sleep train because I was creating bad habits by holding him. And so I watched all sorts of YouTube videos about how to sleep train. And it's painful, like for me to even think about it, because I was, I was in school studying child development. And I knew that was not the answer, because it simply didn't match with. With the information that I had, I knew my son was so immature at that point. But then, all their articles I found was that I needed to teach him how to sleep that will solve all my issues. That was so my motherhood journey that will fix all the feelings that I had, that it wasn't good enough, that will fix all the feelings that I was losing control of my life, that was going to fix all the all the fears that I had about the future. Because I didn't know if I would be able to be the mother that society was expecting for me to be right. So so many uncertainties around that stage that I was going through. And it was so hard because I felt that I was so deep into that. So deep into that feeling of losing control of fearing how things will turn out for me as a mother for my son. My husband was basically working from seven to 10pm. So like I was really feeling lonely, and unsupported. And sleep training seemed to be the only way for me. So I went on, and I tried to sleep train him first Ramsey on the internet, and just like trying to get him to like in in, in the Caribbean, and wait for X minutes. And it wasn't working. I remember being next to his crib. Oh, this is hard. And I was sitting next to his crib, and I felt that I needed to pick him up. He was screaming so loud. And that was just so so painful for me to just be there next to him and not picking him up. But But if like all those things that you read about that, if you do like if you do give in right, then they will cry harder. And that's that, like, that's the moment that you feel like you are doing that, right? So you were causing them to cry more because either you were picking them up, or it feels like you are always to blame for the situation you were in. So like, this is basically the reason why I do what I do. The reason why I feel like we need to keep pushing and just keep sharing this information, even when we are judged. Because we are doing so. And I just wanted to say that as a mother who tried to sleep trained her highly sensitive child. It is triggering for me still to share this information. And to read about this. It's triggering. It's triggering because I always feel like I shouldn't have known this. How didn't I? Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 14:22
no. So there's so many layers to everything you just shared there like a lack of support. The messaging around sleep training is that you give the gift of sleep to your child. You do this for your child and the message you get is I am doing a disservice by not teaching my child this valuable skill. And then when you can't do it, you're too soft you give in then it just further reiterates those feelings of failure. I am failing him I am not cut out for this and it just sends people into such a spiral and I hope you have a lot of compassion for yourself because you did what you needed to do at the time. And even if you're learning about child development stuff I know so many psychologists, so many social workers, so many health professionals who also know this stuff about child development, yet say, the opposite of what needs to happen around sleep, there's such a disconnect. And there's no wonder people are confused, because that information and advice, clearly, conflicts itself. fixable itself. Yeah. What about you, Rachel, what was your experience?
Rachael 15:35
So similar? My first is also my highly sensitive child. And, of course, I knew nothing about that. At the time, I didn't even know that that was a thing. But yeah, I mean, I live in San Francisco, you would think that it's like, kind of this crunchy community where all natural parenting is really valued. And it is to a certain extent, but it's also an area where there's a lot of high achieving people and people that work really crazy hours, and people that really value getting back to work right away, and things like that. So there is a really big sleep training culture here. And I didn't really have any friends that are babies yet. I am the oldest of three girls like nobody that I was close to had a baby, I was really the first one. And so I joined, you know, a little moms group that was local. And lots of the talk was about sleep training, even though all of our babies were two, three months old. It was something that was at the forefront of almost every conversation was how sleep going, how do we get this better? Like how do we fix this. And I was also just really struggling, I was really struggling with the lack of sleep. It's not something that I think anybody can really prepare for before you become a parent. And there's no denying that it's very hard to function on little sleep. And similar to what Mariana was saying, My son also had reflux. And you know, he was highly sensitive, it was very hard to put him down. And I just was so confused. Like, I just thought this was going to be so different. I thought he would sleep for at least a few hours at a time, I wasn't thinking he would sleep through the night unnecessarily. But he was waking way more than I thought was going to be normal. And I just felt this immense pressure. Like when he turned two or three months old, I was kind of like, well, shouldn't this be better? You know, like, why isn't he sleeping through the night yet? I don't get it. And now I just look back at myself, like how stupid can you really be How naive, but I think lots of new parents just really have no clue what to expect or what's normal, because so much of the messaging that we see is, you know, babies should should really only need one feed a night, by six months, or most babies can sleep through the night by six months, or once they meet their birth weight, they should be able to, there's all these crazy landmarks or, or arbitrary weights or ages, where it should happen. And so I just became a complete anxiety case. And I became so obsessed with how he slept. And it's all I would talk about to anybody that would ask me about how we were doing. It was just Sleep, sleep, sleep. And it just really kind of took over my life. And I read so many books, all of them horrible about sleep and, and what to do. And so the first thing that I tried was the 12 hours by 12 weeks, which was basically just stretch their feeds, ah, is the main takeaway from that book. And, you know, when that didn't work, I graduated to sleep training. And we tried a very probably the most popular program here in the States. And, you know, bought the very expensive PDF guide, with, you know, these pre made schedules and weak windows and stuff like that to follow. And then the five S's and then like a Ferber style chart. And so we went through with that, and I have talked a lot about this on my page. And I ended up writing a blog post a year or two ago about, like the full experience of it. And similar to Mariana like, I could just cry, thinking about it and talking about it because it was so so awful and traumatic for us. And yet we still tried it three times. When it didn't work the first time. We tried it again. And I will say that one thing that did end up working for us with all of the sleep training stuff was and my son is still this way. He's a very like, schedule, like Routines Based child and so having, you know, like a bedtime routine and putting him down in his crib. drowsy but awake I hate to even say those words I'm here. But those types of things did actually end up working well for him. So, you know, there were I'm not going to like, I really dislike sleep training, I really just like sleep training culture. But I think the main thing that I took away was that there are bits and pieces of probably lots of different approaches that can work for certain kids. But we can't assume that like this same program is going to work for everyone the exact same way. And like, what Mariana was saying to I think, what parents need is like support and information and options, because there are some things that you can pick and choose, that will work. But one thing that really didn't work for him was screaming his head off for two hours at night, because he was hungry. And my husband going in every five minutes every 10 minutes to try to console him, but not pick him up and not look at him and not touch him. Like those things really, really did not work for us. And so anyway, we finally ended up giving up when he was nine months old. After our third attempt, and you know, things were actually in a pretty good spot. By then we had like a great bedtime routine, he went down super happy. Anybody could put him down, like we had built all of these really great sleep hygiene type things into his sleep schedules. And he was waking still, like once or twice a night for feedings. And I kind of realized I was okay with that, like I was working and I was functioning fine. I, you know, it was it just was what it was. And then he started sleeping through the night, when he turned one. Like, the week before he turned one. He started sleeping through the night. And he's been an amazing sleeper ever since. So, yeah, that is kind of just what set me on this whole journey. Because when I was pregnant with my daughter, I was terrified to go through all of that again. And I was just like, there has to be a better way. Like, I learned some stuff that I would do with her, like bedtime routines, and, you know, things like that. But I can't do this like trading thing again, like that is just not going to happen. But I also want to sleep. So
Fiona Weaver 22:01
there's such a difference. Isn't there between like sleep, education and sleep hygiene?
Rachael 22:06
Yes. And I think that's what trips a lot of parents, I get this question. Probably every single day, like some version of oh, I follow week one doesn't mean I have a bedtime routine or like I use a white noise machine and, and asleep sack. Does that mean I'm sleep training and these parents now because there are so many different sleep consultants and programs out there that are really whining about what sleep training is? Because they don't want to tell you how hard and how awful it can be? Yeah. And so they're conflating all of these terms. And they're calling sleep hygiene, sleep training. And so then these parents think, well, I don't know if I want to sleep train, but like these things seem to be working for us. And it seems like common sense that we would have a nice, sweet bedtime routine. So why don't we just do that. But I don't want to sleep train. So it's, it's very confusing. And that's what makes me so sad for parents now is that? Yes, it's good that there's multiple options now and multiple points of view, especially with pages like ours becoming more popular, but the sleep training noise is still so much louder.
Fiona Weaver 23:09
I think people can get just really cool on the language of sleep training as well. Like if we advocate for sleep training, just being it being an umbrella term for different ways of supporting or not supporting sleep or whatever that looks like it. You don't have to get caught on Oh my God and my sleep training because I'm following week windows. Next for you, as long as you are safe and respectful and responsive to the best of your ability, then you get to choose how you want to be as a parent, and how you want to
Mariana 23:34
be. Yeah,
Rachael 23:37
I think that's one of my biggest gripes with the whole culture now. And my biggest thing is always against the industry, never against the parents that choose sleep training, because I just told you guys, I was one of them, like I completely get it. But one thing that's so frustrating to me now is just kind of, you know, as a viewer, and I get served a lot of sleep content, obviously the algorithm knows me. So a lot of it is very triggering, but what I find the most upsetting and the most annoying, is that there is this war of like, Sleep Train versus not right, there's always going to be these different opinions and that's fine. But I find the semantics of all of it to be really frustrating because people will put up videos saying Oh, yeah, I chose not to sleep training for this, this or this reason or sleep training isn't for us for this, this or this reason. And then there's all these people in the comments trying to defend sleep training, saying, You guys think sleep training is just cry it out. It's not that and it's like, okay, A is a lot of the time just cried out like there are still lots and lots and lots of people doing cried out extinction, like full blown, because like what you were saying earlier When you're there, and when you go do these like Poppins or check ins or whatever you want to call it, it gets worse. So then what happens when those little checks are making the child more upset? Well, the sleep consultant or the plan, or whatever it is, is going to tell you, okay, just do extinction and then just stop doing the Poppins if they're if they're making them to upset and, and that's what's confusing to parents too, is that there are all of these different things like pick up, put down the chair, method, all these different things that are sleep training, and can be quite upsetting for everyone involved. But parents are led to believe that since it's not full extinction cried out that that means it's gentle, and it means it's totally fine. And so that is, but it's just so frustrating for me to see these people just like mincing words and terms and everyone just being completely confused. Yeah, because people are now even calling it sleep learning. They're not even calling it
Fiona Weaver 25:59
it's like responsive fiddling or controlled control, crying or control, comforting or just Yeah, coming up with new names for it. And I think what's really infuriating is so many of these plans and approaches in sleep consultants say that they are gentle. And I'm not saying that people would, you know, who do claim to be gentle aren't always gentle. Again, gentle is another term that we can just, you know, subjectively think about that, how we want to think about it. But it's the ones who say, it's super responsive and pick up your baby when you want to pick them up. And then when you say this isn't working, they say, Okay, now you need to just let him settle himself and go to sleep. And it's always there, because the other way isn't always as effective. It won't never eradicate night wakes necessarily, because they
Rachael 26:50
definitely not in a week or two either. And that's what people want, when they buy these programs is a very quick solution. Quickly. Yeah.
Mariana 26:58
Yeah. And the thing is, like, what really bothers me is this is the is the idea that these programs and robbing the parents ability to choose when to stop or when to do certain things? Like, what really bothers me is that there are so many rules that they need to follow. And if they don't, then so so this is basically what to me. Like, it's, it's what triggers me the most. So when, when we have like, and I always tell parents who, who come to us, like for a consultation, for example, and they tell us that they previously tried to sleep train. And I always try to tell them that like they are so safe with us. Because yes, like, I totally understand what led you to try. And I also understand why it didn't work. Because, like, you have to do it over and over again most of the time. And yeah, obviously we need to talk about temperament as well, which is something that you guys talk a lot about on your pages in temperament does impact a lot on this process, right? Either if you try to sleep train, or if you don't, still like it does impact on parenting in general. Right? So. But what really bothers me is this idea that if the parent is not doing exactly what they're told to do, then it's because of them.
Fiona Weaver 28:36
Yeah, totally following it closely enough. Yeah,
Rachael 28:40
it totally Yeah, the way your intuition and your confidence, I remember, I was putting together a post about our sleep training journey. And so I was like, I decided to kind of search in my phone to see if I had any texts and things saved from that time in our life. And I was just so horrified. Because it would be things like, my husband would text me while I was at work or something, and he'd be like, he's been crying in the crib for 13 minutes. What should I do? And at the time, that was like a decision I would actually think about, I'd be like, Well, what was the week window before this? Maybe he's overtired? Let's see if he'll fall back asleep in five more minutes. So it's like, and now I look back, and I'm like, That is insane like that. We just, we had no idea what we were doing already as new parents and these types of programs just stripped away any? Yeah, what what little intuition might naturally be there, and what little competence we might have actually built up if we had tried to kind of figure things out on our own. And that is just like so heartbreaking to me that we just let these random strangers give us a pre made plan that hundreds of 1000s of other people have to for our unique baby that they don't know And we truly just had no idea what to do. And we were like paralyzed.
Fiona Weaver 30:06
It's so unfair, isn't it? Like, isn't that just the beauty of relationship like the dance of relationship to try to hypothesize what they might be asking us for to give them something back in return and just see how it lands. And that's how we build up our getting to know our kids and our confidence in our responding to them. Like, when you I hear this so often that people have this as their, their breaking point, when they're obsessing about sleeping, they're like, Okay, there's got to be another way. And it's often that Rachel when they literally don't know how to respond to their baby, they have to Texas A consultant, or quickly look up the guide, or just freeze. Like, I don't know how to respond to him right now. I don't know what he needs. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to fix this. And then just that complete. Okay, there's got to be another way, this doesn't feel right.
Rachael 30:55
Yeah. And that's actually really hard for some of our clients when they come to us. And they're like, Oh, I can't text you, or like, email you a million times a day and ask what to do with this, or this, or this happens. And we're kind of like, no, like, we don't work like that. We want NATO empowered and to to learn that way to learn that you do have the answers. You can't figure this out.
Fiona Weaver 31:18
It's such an important part of the work, isn't it?
Mariana 31:21
Yeah. Yeah. It's basically resting you your inner authority, right? Because you were so like, you were basically delegating this to someone else. Because you are told that you cannot make this decision by herself. Right. So, and I think that this is what happens for most parents, especially when you were entering parenting. So this transition can be really difficult for most of us, especially with all the information that we are surrounded, like people, it feels like people are screaming, right? You do this, you do that you didn't see. So it's really hard to kind of find your own voice and, and what's your, what makes sense to your, your values, what you are because the focus changes, right? So you are basically focusing on sleep and sleep and sleep and not the relationship that you will be building. So when you kind of you are able to step out a little bit and kind of see, okay, what's happening here, right? Am I just teaching and teaching and teaching, or I'm modeling, or I am trying to build this lifelong relationship. And this is the hardest thing to do. Because putting this aside, right to focus on what we are building, the long term thing that we are doing as parents can be really, really tough. When all people talk about in early part, parenting is asleep.
Fiona Weaver 32:59
Yes. Or your parenting is judged on the quality of your child's sleep.
Mariana 33:04
Yeah, exactly. Like the doctor asks you about your your child's sleep, your friends, your family, everyone.
Rachael 33:13
And I think new parents have such decision fatigue, I think there are so many things now that you think you have to have figured out when you're a new parent, like, Oh, are you guys going to swaddle? Are you going to sleep train? Are you going to do baby led weaning? Are you going to do Montessori like there's all these things that parents feel like they need to know. And I think that is honestly one of the huge draws of sleep training. Besides obviously, that parents get these like fake promises that they're gonna get amazing sleep and have like this incredible sex life, once their kid is sleeping, they also get to like, take something off of their plate, they get to have somebody tell them exactly what to do, they get to follow a little plan, follow a formula. And I think that's really satisfying to new parents, because having a baby is so intense. And most of the time, we don't really have any clue what we're doing or what they want or what they need. And I think that's a huge, huge draw for why most people kind of go into it is just to have somebody tell them exactly what to do.
Fiona Weaver 34:14
And just a sense of control as well, like you have a baby and you just lose any sight of routine. And that is such a shock to the system. If you have previously relied on little you know, daily rituals or space for yourself and things. It's hard like that can turn you upside down. But fighting against it is so much harder than leaning into it and surrendering to it and finding stability and little rituals rather than, you know, routine by the clock. But you kind of have to and this is what I always say like I so empathize with people who try all the things before they come to surrender or, you know, being a little bit more responsive or whatever that looks like. But sometimes you just have to go through the journey yourself. It doesn't matter who tells you or who supports you along the way. I that says you don't have to do this, there is another way, you probably might still have to do the thing to realize. Yeah, I
Mariana 35:07
totally agree. Yeah. And I think that's also part of this re parenting journey, right? Because in a culture, if you were raised in a culture that focuses on achieving goals, and, you know, being the best, or you know, that emphasizes this individuality so much. You have to go through this real parenting journey to kind of find out what you like you personally, would like to focus on in your parenting. So what you like to represent in your child's life. So I think that's also as you said, like part of the process, you have to it's, it's, it's trial and error.
Fiona Weaver 35:52
So yeah, and and trial and error is such a good way to reframe. You know, you can hear, you know, follow your intuition. But that feels so overwhelming to a person who has no idea where their intuition is, they can't find it, they don't know what that feels like anymore. They're so far removed from their intuition. That can be like stop talking, telling me to follow my intuition. I don't know what that means. But to just say, Just experiment, just have a go trial and error and see how things land that can feel a lot less intimidating for someone.
Mariana 36:23
Yeah. And that you can always reverse things right back. So I like to talk about is like, don't be afraid, don't be afraid to try things. Don't be afraid to try this new, because some parents are really focused on weak windows, and that's totally fine. This is, as you said, Fiona, it's basically like, where some parents find a little bit like that they are taking back a little bit of control. Because we lose so much of this, like, we lose control of our lives completely, right. So some parents do need that do need to kind of have that sense of predictability. And it can be really scary for them to kind of remove themselves from this sleep training, focus and culture, to then move to a different approach where you can basically try everything. So you, you can just be responsive, you can pick up your child and then try this later. It's okay, so we're basically trying to say that you were saying, Yeah, but what are the rights? Yes, they are. All right, yes. So when you are in this process of kind of getting used to be like things being okay, even if they don't work, like it's not, it's not really work, but even if they don't go the way as planned, and then we can always change back, if that was working better. That's okay, we can reverse things again. And, and that's where this like 24/7, sleep support is not really appropriate, when you are working in this way. Because you kind of want to give room for parents to experiment, to try to find their own ways. And the title. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 38:15
I was gonna say it takes work for us as a profession professionals as well, to know how to sit in that space without being the expert, because it's not our role to just tell people everything we know, and to be the expert, and because that would feed our own ego, because that would make us feel really smart and clever. But actually, it's about us sitting with that discomfort of letting people find their way a little bit. And also being able to sit with their discomfort of not being able to fix things the way that they might think they can, and not everybody is there and ready to receive that kind of support. But it does, it takes a lot of you know, just in the way that we reparent ourselves in parenting. It's like that's kind of Yeah, that takes a lot of reflection and having to sit with our own discomfort to
Rachael 39:05
Yeah, I love I love that. And I think that's part of the like brainwashing of the sleep training industry too, is like, just like you said, parents think that there should be this one right way or this one easy answer to whatever they're dealing with. Every time I do a question box. You know, I love doing them because it's so interesting to me what people are asking, but every time I I put up a question box on Instagram, I get so many parents that will say like, my child is doing this why? Or lately this is happening. Why like parents just think that there is this one answer for everything and that we asleep specialists must know those answers like I don't know why your 12 month old doesn't want to be rocked anymore. Like how could I possibly know why? I can tell you that that's like a common thing that happens and like give you some ideas and some reassurance but I think The sleep training industry in this whole culture and this whole obsession about sleep has really just done such a number on parents where they think that if there's like one little thing that's off, or one little thing that's different one day, like, there's got to be this deep reason why and there's got to be this thing that they have to do to fix it. And it's so damaging. It's just yeah, it's just so it is just like, not a way to live. And I was I get it, because that's how I wasn't my first two. And with my second, I just was like, whatever she's going to do, she's going to do I am not going to waste my precious time and energy trying to figure out why she does all the things that she does. Why she slept through the night for two weeks and then stopped for a week or let you know, it's just it's not worth it. Because it's it's so liquid like infant and toddler sleep just changes so frequently and so often, that it's really just at the end of the day not worth stressing all that much about a little blip, or are
Fiona Weaver 41:00
grownups, right, yeah, sleep changes. I had a late night the other night, so I went to bed earlier the next night, sometimes I can stay up and watch TV till 1030. Sometimes I'm asleep by 830. With the kids. It's so fluid and always changing. And it's about being able to listen to our own bodies and checking in with our bodies about what they need. And that's what we want to model for our children as well.
Rachael 41:20
Yeah. And it's so satisfying. When you see when you see that happen in real time when you see them learn. Oh, my body feels tired. I do you want to lay down now today? I asked. No, we were at a family brunch. And nobody's my second. She's my two and a half year old. I asked her around 1230 Are you feeling tired? Do you want to go take a nap now? And everybody kind of looked at me like you're really going to ask her if she wants to take a nap. Yeah, like this permissive parent. And then about an hour later at 130. I asked her again, do you want to go take a nap? No. Are you feeling tired? Yeah, I'm really tired girl. When we went to lay on the bed in the guest room, and she just laid there super quietly, very content fell asleep in five minutes. And you know, if I had tried to say, oh, no, it's 1230. This is your naptime. We have to go nap right now. She would have probably been flailing around jumping all over me jumping all over the room and the bed or crying trying to escape the room because she didn't want to sleep. And so for me, like having such a different experience with my second kid that I took with my first kid with sleep that has been so gratifying is to see that she really knows her body. And she's really in tune with her body. And, you know, she's two and a half now. So I do give her some autonomy. And if the NAP is absolutely not happening that day, then it's not happening that day. And she'll go to bed a little earlier. And I'll get to enjoy my TV and snacks a little bit earlier. And that's also fine with me. So it's, it's just such a happier way to live.
Fiona Weaver 42:52
It's so different, isn't it, I honestly couldn't really tell you how my daughter slept in those first, you know, six or so months of life because we just had the bassinet out in the living room. And I'd pick her up and put her down and pick her up and put her down. And sometimes she'd be on me. And sometimes if I needed to go to the toilet, I put it back down in the bassinet. And then I pick her back up, it was just so up and down all day. But if I was tracking that, and I thought that that was a problem, and I was trying to extend those naps in the bassinet, I would have been going crazy, just like I did with my first it's just like your, your second
Rachael 43:24
child humbles you a little bit because you don't have the luxury of controlling as much as you think you can with your first because they have to be on the go with you a little more, and they have to adapt to more than your first child had to. So
Fiona Weaver 43:37
yeah, and sometimes you might, you know, see that your child really, really needs a good sleep. And you might prioritize that that day. But there's plenty of times where you need to prioritize family time or prioritize time for yourself to catch up with friends of things. I could chat about this all day. You're gonna do it with you with your third Rachel.
Rachael 43:57
You know, we are definitely going to do a mix. So I mean, obviously, we're not doing any of the sleep training stuff that we did with my first but I also don't necessarily want to bed share for two years, like we did with my second. So not that I didn't like that. It just I don't know. I just want to see if we can not do that. Basically. So one thing that was really hard with my second baby was that she was very, very much all about mommy all the time still is. She's getting much better with my husband like she will go down for a nap with him and stuff like that when I'm not available, but I really want to get my husband more involved from day one. No, so she was a pandemic baby. She was home with me all the time. He was an essential worker. So he was out most of her early life and it just was kind of easier like when you have a second it's kind of easier to divide and conquer sometimes so he would always do my oldest and I was always With her, so that was just how it was. And it still is like, he's still, my son calls him his bed, buddy. They still do bedtime together, and I lay with Maui. And so we're going to start kind of moving to make a change where my husband lives with both of them, they're going to be, you know, the big kids, and I'll probably leave with the baby. Although my husband doesn't like that arrangement, he thinks he should be able to be with the baby. And I should have to do the big bedtime. So we'll see how that goes. But yeah, so I would say the biggest, the biggest thing we're going to change is just having my husband much more involved with the baby earlier. And you know, we're gonna try, we did a bassinet with both of my kids when they were newborns. And I liked that they both did pretty much fine. My son was harder because he had colic, or reflux. So laying flat was like not super great for him. But we'll see, I think I guess the biggest thing is just being flexible and like open to all the options. And having the competence now that I've done it into such starkly different ways that I can find kind of like a middle and take bits and pieces that I liked from each way we did things with each of the first kids. So love it.
Fiona Weaver 46:11
Just a little bit of flexible experimentation. How many weeks have you got to go?
Rachael 46:17
Seven and a half?
Fiona Weaver 46:19
Holy moly,
Rachael 46:20
I know I'm not ready. We're excited to where we wish we were more ready. But I think probably every pregnant person says that.
Fiona Weaver 46:31
Yeah. That look like?
Rachael 46:34
Well, we're not living in our house right now. So are our houses under construction, and not livable, like even in the least it probably won't even be livable in the next month. So we are either going to be bringing a newborn home to a house that we're like just moving into that week. Or bringing a newborn home into a home that's not ours, and then having to move when they're still quite young. So yeah, we'll see. I don't know which option is worse. So you know, I'm open.
Fiona Weaver 47:10
let's reframe that. I don't know which option is better.
Rachael 47:12
Which one's better? I don't know. Yeah, it'll be fine.
Fiona Weaver 47:19
I have loved chatting to you girls today. Is there anything that you wanted to say before we finish up?
Rachael 47:25
Just that I want you to cast and I love what you're putting out into the world.
Fiona Weaver 47:29
Oh, back at you guys. It's so it's interesting, actually, isn't it because when when we speak to people on Instagram, we kind of assume that people know that there are all these accounts like ours that are you know, shifting the paradigm shifting the narrative about sleep. But I always remember the first time I ever came across it. And I need to remember that so many people have like our victim to the algorithm and getting all of this strict sleep training advice, following all of the sleep accountants, accountants, this wave accounts. And then when they land on your accounts or my account, like I you guys will get messages all the time as well like, oh my god, I'm so happy I found this because I didn't know there was another way. And that's where I think we have so much we have the potential to have so much impact is showing people that there is another way we're not going to tell you not to do something or to do something in a way that doesn't feel right for you. But there are options and we are here to help you through those. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, pleasure ladies, and we should do it again. One time.
Rachael 48:34
Yes. Can we have a wine in about seven and a half weeks of wine?
Fiona Weaver 48:39
Well, same time and you guys can have a wine and I'll have a mimosa my bread well thank you for your time and I will link to your accounts and everything as well. In the show notes cute.
Rachael 48:52
Great, crazy.
Fiona Weaver 48:55
Thank you so much for listening to mama chatters if you enjoyed this episode, let's continue the conversation on Instagram at MAMA matters.au Be sure to share this app with your family and friends. And don't forget if you liked it, please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again and I will see you next time.
