Yara Heary on maternal anger, relationships and identity after baby, the good mum & good girl syndrome, the anger iceberg, and nervous system regulation
Yara is a Perth psychologist who works exclusively with women throughout conception, pregnancy, and motherhood. Yara started Life After Birth Psychology following the birth of her first son which started her on yet another journey of self-rediscovery. Her experiences throughout early motherhood drew her to support other women as they navigate their own family of origin dynamics, the social programming of the “good mother”, relationship changes with those around them, identity shifts, and role changes to find their place of balance and authenticity as mothers. We chat about soooo much good stuff! - Relationships after baby - Anger, the anger iceberg, why we get angry in motherhood - How our childhood affects our experience with anger as adults - Reparenting the inner child - Regulating our nervous system in motherhood - The good mum myth, intensive mothering and anger - Breathing practices You can find Yara here: @lifeafterbirthpsychology https://www.lifeafterbirth.com.au/
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TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 00:09
Hello love and welcome to the Manage chatters podcast. If you're keen to ditch all of the parenting shoulds and want to uncomplicate sleep and parenting, you are in the right place, through honest conversations with experts and each other, we will help you to cut through all of the noise and to love the heck out of your imperfect and authentic parenting. I'm Fiona, a social worker by trade. Now supporting families with sleep and parenting through my business mama matters. I'm passionate about parenting psychology, biologically normal infants sleep and infant mental health and attachment. I'm also a parent and I am on a mission to normalize the shitshow that can be parenthood. I know that right now you might be trapped under a sleeping baby. Or maybe you've got your headphones in to soften the blue of the afternoon witching hour, wherever and whoever you are. I want you to know that you belong here. Now, let's have a chat Hello, my love's I hope you're well, I have a chat today with era Harry who is a psychologist from Perth. She is just the coolest person you know you meet these people and you're like, Damn, why can I not be that cool? Anyway, she's a legend. She is full of wisdom. We are talking today about maternal rage, relationship changes, identity, the anger iceberg. Perfect mother myth intensive mothering ideology, all of the good stuff. And I know that you're going to love it. The sound goes a little bit bonkers. somewhere towards the end. We had so much trouble with this it actually cut out we missed apart if there's anything that's not quite perfect about this chat. Please have compassion for us because it took me about 72 hours to 72 Broken hours to edit this thing, but I couldn't let it go because I just adore her words. And I knew that you would love the chat. So Dan is better than perfect. Okay, enjoy my loves. And I will tell you where to find her in the show notes. Hello, Yara. Welcome to the potty.
Yara 02:15
Hi. Nice to be here. I'm
Fiona Weaver 02:18
happy to have you here.
Yara 02:19
Me too. I'm happy to be here. I love it should love it. Ah,
Fiona Weaver 02:23
loves the chat. That's why we've just been chatting for what half an hour before we thought maybe we should probably do what we're here to
Yara 02:31
do. Yeah, it's always good to have good catch up, isn't it?
Fiona Weaver 02:35
It is it's nice. It's not enough. Not enough catching up in this busy world. Absolutely. Yeah. So we are here today because you are somewhat of a wise woman when it comes to anger in motherhood. That's what I want to talk your ear off about today. Because I know that it's something that comes up for mothers everywhere in their parenting journey. And I would love to open up that dialogue and make it a little bit less taboo make sense of it, and maybe even chat about some practical ways that we can. Yeah, manage our anger. Yeah. I'd love that. Would you tell us a little bit about who you are? Who's in your family and about your work?
Yara 03:21
Yeah, I would love to. So I'm Yara and I'm a psychologist here in Perth. And I'm also, I always feel like I want to say, and I'm a mother and all of those things that are really relevant, relevant to the work that I do. And then I think that's not the only thing I am. So I'll start with different things. So I am a creative and I'm a singer as well and was really prolific in that in a past life. And yes, I'm also a mother to two beautiful, wild, wild creatures, I like to call them my Mowgli's who are three and six. And I'm a wife also. And I guess I started working in the parallel space after I had my first child. So my son Otis, because as many people may find, I became a mother having an idea about what I would be like as a mother and also what it would look like to be in the role of mothering. And my lived experience of that was very, very different to what I had in my mind. And, you know, when we have that happen, so when we have our, I guess, expectations or even fantasies about what we think a particular situation or experience is going to be like, and when that really differs from our reality. We have a lot of we can experience a lot of kind of psychological distress. And that was absolutely what I experienced. And in fact, probably the first thing or the first area that I had the most difficulty with was actually around my relationship with my husband. And I remember so clearly, while I was pregnant, that we would joke about, like, as people wouldn't have, you know, I'll say wisdom, but maybe it's unresolved trauma of their own, that they would want to impart onto us, you know, in terms of like, oh, when the baby comes, this is gonna happen. And this is how your relationship is going to change and all the rest of it. And most of it was really negative, like, most of it was all this horrible. Just, yeah, absolutely. Just wait, and you know, like, your relationships gonna change and stuff to do with, you know, there'll be lack of intimacy, and blah, blah, blah, which was awful to listen to. But in the end, like, we actually found that those things were true. And I don't necessarily have an issue with people providing, how do I describe it, like, providing gently providing information too. So we know what we're expecting, but it's really about how that information is provided. Right? And, and how space is held, and making sure that there is enough space held there for people to actually have their own experience, right. So that there is the possibility and the openness within that conversation for the possibility that someone's experience may actually be different, because everyone's experience is different. Really, right. And so, yeah, so we kind of went through all of that challenge. And I remember it really culminated in at that time, we had also, we bought a house while I was pregnant, we'd renovated it. And we moved in when my son, yeah, exactly. When my son was six weeks old, and I remember when we went out to dinner one night, and it was within the first two months, and my husband was like, you know, talking about the conflict and the challenge that we were experiencing, and he said, You know, I was thinking that I should move back to the old house, you know, because? Because it seems like I'm in the way and it seems like we're always in conflict, and maybe that would make you happier.
Fiona Weaver 07:02
Just thinking,
Yara 07:04
wow, like you have, you know, like, it's just so interesting, how different our two experiences were at that point, you know, and, of course, there's lots that I could say about, you know, the flawed thinking involved in that, but but he was coming from a place of wounding as well, in that particular moment, right. But it's really interesting. And, and there's a, you know, for relationships there is, you know, a high level of relationship, dissatisfaction that happens, you know, after we have our children and that, which is really interesting, because it's so counter the narrative that we have socially, which is have a baby, and you'll be closer and fell in love. And I'll
Fiona Weaver 07:41
be better when the baby comes.
Yara 07:44
Exactly. We just like, you know, spoon fed this bullshit, basically. And then No wonder we're in such shock when that doesn't happen, because we're like, nobody told me about this, or, you know, people told me, but I didn't believe them, because it's completely contrary to everything else that I had learned up until this point.
Fiona Weaver 08:01
Yeah, I find it really hard. That that balance between you know, so many people say, I wish I had this sleep information, or this relationship information, or this identity information. I wish I had this information in pregnancy. But the reality is, and the research shows that most people in pregnancy aren't at a place to accept more go through that information, because they're so focused on the birth and taking care of a baby, which is where they should really be, but it's, it's really hard to kind of get in there.
Yara 08:33
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I think also, but I also think it's that really speaks to our culture, in terms of how we prepare people to transition from, you know, if we're speaking about women, from maiden to mother, in terms of that we have a very, like consumer capitalist kind of culture, which is often really focused on like, how can we make the nursery pretty, you know? And do we have all the things, all of the things that we can purchase? And do we have the best prams and we have all that kind of crap, like, our culture is so focused on that stuff? And so that's where we expend a lot of energy, like, my experience as a therapist is that? Yes, absolutely. I think women and couples in general are really focused on the birth, right, like the actual entry into this world of their baby, but often they are not focused on the things that are actually going to make that really nourishing for them. So and what I'm talking about there is really, like, really evidence based and how do I describe it evidence based and Person Centered birth preparation, for example, like that just floors me at how unprepared so many people are actually for that. What that is, that's that's where people should be investing their time if they're spending it thinking about birth, but it's often in this more consumerism, you know, like, acquisition of things that people think that they need that all end up, you know, piled in a room somewhere when the baby comes home, you know, use that. So yeah. Yeah, but I totally agree with you. There's definitely a fine line. And where I went with that was essentially, in my own exploration of like, how do I manage my relationship crumbling right now and also my own experience through becoming a mother now, because I just feel so overwhelmed and my whole worlds being flipped upside down, is that I found? Well, I really was familiar with the work of Julian John Gottman, but I found their workshop bringing baby home, which was just i remember when i and then I went, did the educator training for that, and I was blown away. And it was perfect. And that program is actually designed for couples in their third trimester, or just before their third trimester. And it's really about how do we how do we send to the relationship and the health of the relationship in order to create the most kind of ideal environment for each of these people to thrive, and for this baby to thrive, when it actually comes along? So you know, often, I really believe that when we when the couple or when Mum and Dad, if they're not together, doing well, in their mental health, and they're nourishing their bodies and looking after themselves. Everything else in parenting is so much easier. And that's a lot to do with, I'm sure we'll touch on this in the anger conversation. But it's to do with our nervous system regulation, right. So when our nervous systems are functioning well, and we have good flexibility in them. So we're able to move into fight or flight and then come back and we're able to move into maybe more of a dorsal vagal space, but then we can bounce back when we have flexibility. That's a good nervous, that's good nervous system functioning. So it's not about being calm all the time, it's about being able to move in and out of that with ease. And I think that when we have good connection, and good systems of CO regulation, so our relationships are doing well and they're healthy, then we have good health, we our nervous systems are healthy, and therefore we can manage all of the challenge that comes with parenting so much better. Does that make sense?
Fiona Weaver 12:05
Yeah, absolutely. So when you're when you're speaking about nervous system regulation like that, in relation to relationship stuff, what do you think? And I would invite you to speak about your own experience, if you're comfortable as well. But what was the unraveling there? Like? What was looking back on that scenario? What was what was missing? Or what would you give yourself in that in that moment? Hmm.
Yara 12:30
Well, I would say that, I mean, I've done a lot of therapy in my life. And I've done a lot of couples therapy since I became a parent. And I think what was missing, in one way for talking about nervous system regulation, what was missing is a lack of understanding for me about how to actually manage that. But also, what was missing was just support structures in our community, right, that actually allowed us to recover and recoup. So, you know, I know that you work a lot with sleep. So for us, our son just didn't sleep, he just didn't sleep very well at all. And that lasted probably about two and a half years. So that's two and a half years of sleep deprivation. And when I think back to that, I actually think I have no idea today, I have no idea how I made it through two and a half years of of that, right, when you're in it, you just find a way to get through it. But what that meant was that, because I had that sleep deprivation, and my husband did as well, because he was very active in the nighttime parenting. We both were in a state of depletion. And I would say that, especially when you become a first time parent, and when you're when you have an infant, the thinking about yourself and your own needs and how to nourish yourself was not first on my list of priorities. Right? It was like all my focus was my baby. And while that is really important, when we first become parents, it can't be the only way that we operate because then what we what starts to happen is, you know, I often talk in my groups about the hierarchy of needs for mothers. And we've got these very basic needs, which tend to be the first things that disappear, so sleep and nutrition and movement. And then we have other needs that go up the hierarchy, which involve like self actualization, actualization, or being in connection with others. So this is like maintaining friendships and having someone that you can talk to and feel connected to and all of the rest of it. Those are all more higher order complex kinds of things in the hierarchy, but at the very basic level, which is like sleep movement, nourishment, you know, physical safety and shelter and things like that. Those things a lot of them can disappear for us when we first become mothers because we become so focused on our children, you know, so I was not drinking enough water. I was eating scraps. I wasn't sleeping enough. I wasn't getting enough time for myself. I was just completely overtaken by Yeah, and overtaken by being with this child. And plus, you know, when we have been pregnant in that first year, I think a lot of what we should be focused on is how do we rebalance our bodies like in terms of actual depletion, right? So nutrient depletion, depletion, all that sort of thing. And I breastfed for a really long time. So that also impacted that. And so for me, personally, there was all of that going on. And there was also so much stuff that came to the surface now that I was a mother. So my own experience of being parented, I grew up for most of my life without my mother. And that happened in a very traumatic way for me. And so all of that stuff that yes, I had worked on for many years showed up in new ways, because I'd never had children before, right. So I'd never had to have certain thoughts or relive certain experiences. So all of that was happening amongst, you know, and adding to I guess, fueling the nervous system dysregulation which therefore then impacted how I responded to my husband. Does that make sense? So really, I think what has helped for our relationship is both of us learning about the nervous system, and how to regulate the nervous system, and also about how the nervous system is imprinted through the or rather from the experiences that we've had in the past. So a lot of that that may be relevant is how have how has our nervous system kind of been shaped by the experiences we've had in our own childhood. So by our parents who validated or did not validate us whether we've experienced other kinds of trauma, attachment, trauma, and learning about that, so that we can notice what's happening in our body day to day and moment to moment, or when my husband says something to me, and I'm about to perceive that in a certain way, picking up that, okay, this is my body responding, because it's been taught how to do this before, right. So picking up on all of that we have to become really self aware, I think, in order to really be able to master those things. And I absolutely am not a master of them. You know, like, I'm just learning more every day and getting better at it every day. But I think yeah, learning about the nervous system, learning about how we receive imprinting throughout our lives, and then actually being really intentional about applying that stuff. Because we can know that stuff. And still not actually make, you know, we haven't made the choice and the decision to actually go ahead and apply that. One of the other things that I'll say, which just keeps coming up in my mind, and I use it, I use this sort of saying a lot in therapy and stuff is also just that benefit of the doubt. And this is what the government's talk a lot about in their work, which is about when we are going through this massive life transition of becoming parents, it's really easy to allow our conditioning and our stress and depletion and all the rest of it to influence the way that we perceive our partner and the way we perceive their intentions about things that they do. And I would say that most of the time, we're probably wrong in terms of how we are interpreting that. And I think that if we're able to give the benefit of the doubt, it can really change the way that you interact with your partner, really, really greatly. And so, I even actually found myself doing that today. My husband's away at the moment. And I was thinking about the intensity of the morning and getting ready this morning. And I was just about to get into a bit of a like spiral of feeling like, Oh, I've been left alone doing all this stuff again. And like I just I was totally about to get into that space. And then I really noticed it. And I noticed all of like the tension peeking in my body. And I was driving the cars, taking the kids off to school and that and I put my hand on my chest and took a couple of really long breaths just to regulate my nervous system. And I said to myself, benefit of the doubt. And then I was like, okay, he didn't know that I had these things going on on this particular day. He's allowed to and deserves to also have rest, because he's away actually on a on a on a holiday. He's allowed to enjoy his life. I can handle this. And then I tuned in with like the inner child in a child part of me that was being triggered in that moment, which was like, I'm all alone, I've been left alone, right? And then I tuned in with that and just spoke to that part of me and was like I'm here for you. I know you're feeling really alone, but I see you and I'm here for you. And it's doing practices like that, that allow me to defuse situations that could otherwise really blow up in our relationship but also my relationship with my children and just generally even when I'm, you know, that we're triggered by other people in my life friendships or whatever, it's doing work like that. But that takes time to cultivate. So if people are listening to this, and they're thinking, wow, that sounds really how do you do that when you're in the flood of the moment? Well, sometimes I can't do that in the flooded the moment that come back to that later. It's practice practice allows us to get better with everything, right?
Fiona Weaver 19:56
Yeah, that's the tricky thing about parenting isn't there's no short carts, there's no, there's no quick fix, and that you have to kind of do the work time have to practice in order to actually integrate it. And it's, it's interesting what you're saying about giving them the benefit of the doubt. Because as you're saying that as well, I'm thinking about, it's the same way that we need to treat our children with any behavioral stuff, or sibling conflict or anything like that, I always remind myself of that, to see the good in our children so that they can they they know in their heart of hearts, that we see the good in them, and we know that they're good kids, yeah, that was in commerce. But to give them the benefit of the doubt, and they can tell us their story, you know, so we don't make assumptions about them. And it's the same with our partners.
Yara 20:44
Absolutely. I love that that's such a good, I love that, that's that sort of that phrase, seeing the good in them. And when we see the good in them, they can see the good in themselves. And that's how they're cultivate that beautiful, compassionate, nurturing inner voice as well for them. And I also think that within relationships, that really works as well. So being able to see the good in our partners, and being able to give them the benefit of the doubt, means that they're also encouraged to do better within their relationships, and to not give up as well. So, you know, many people believe that by, you know, they talk about constructive criticism, you know, which is just like a complete fallacy, there really is no such thing as constructive criticism, criticism leads to lower self esteem. And when we have lower self esteem, we have less motivation to do any particular thing, right, because we think poorly of ourselves, and then we start to beat ourselves up, and we lose motivation. So we're not actually going to get the best behavioral outcomes from people by providing criticism, and that is exactly the same with our children, right? If we know this, through, you know, many decades of research that when we want a particular behavior, or, you know, if we think about a positive behavior, it's actually positive reinforcement when we give them praise, and we tell them that we believe in them, and that when we build up their self esteem, that's when they're more likely to with children, for example, continue even when they don't get it right the first time, you know, or to try and do better. That's, that's kind of, you know, how we get that. And it's exactly the same in our relationships as well. You know, if our partners believe that we think positively of them, and we really cultivate a culture of appreciation of fondness and affection in our relationship, then they're more likely to be in connection with us same as our children, right, and be more likely to collaborate with us and to work with us in that relationship. And very much that is the same for children as well. When our children feel onside, they're much more likely to behave in ways that we find easier to hear as
Fiona Weaver 22:48
well. Yeah, yeah, we become more of a team don't we have rather than enemies. And it's the same with I feel it's I have to catch myself out. Sometimes when, and I'm on the just doing this, I've probably been pretty irritable. And probably my nervous system has been a little bit dysregulated for a long time. And maybe now that I am just having more space for myself and my own creativity and putting in more boundaries around things, I don't know, I just feel like there's been a shift in the last year or so my kids are now six and three. And I can start to regulate myself before I snap at him and just be able to back off a little bit. And to talk myself through that to think this is his, you know, this is his space. This is his parenting. This is his, he doesn't have to do it the same as me. And I've always known that, but I'm more conscious about just, you know, letting him do his thing not to be quick to assume things and have a go. Yeah. And also, it's this coming alongside, like instead of having a go at him for forgetting things, recognizing that I forget things too. And maybe we can help each other to remember and to share that load instead of that just having a go at each other for forgetting things. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah,
Yara 24:05
absolutely. And one of the things that I have been thinking about this week as well, because in my group, so I run a group coaching program, program rather called the rebirth and one of the things that comes up so often in that group, but also in my one on one work with therapy clients is the relationship. So I work with the mothers, but so much of the content is around the relationship, right and about emotional needs within that relationship. And one of the things that I sort of have come to recognize is that when we're talking about the relationship with our children, and the challenges that we have within that relationship, and like the triggers that we experience or whatever, we're often it's easy for us to say things like these challenges or the triggers that I experienced, allow me to work on the things that need healing within myself that are still here because of the experiences that I've had Throughout my life, but we're less quick to say that about the challenges we experience in relationships. And it's equally valid though, because the adult attachments that we have now, which are often influenced by the attachments that we developed in our childhood, influenced who we choose as partners. So, you know, we often replicate situations that we've been in or interaction or within that those relationships that we have experienced in our relationships earlier on. And so equally, then, reasons that, you know, stands to reason that these conflicts or these challenges that we have within relationships that are otherwise healthy are also opportunities to heal those parts within us that maybe wounded from our own childhoods and from the experiences that we've had as well. And I just raised that because I think that it allows us to put a positive spin on the challenges we experience in our parenting relationship, so between parent and child, and I think it's important to also see some of the challenges we experience in our romantic relationships as opportunities for us to do inner work as well. Does that make sense?
Fiona Weaver 26:10
Absolutely, there's always a space for growth and and reflection, isn't there? Yeah. Which makes motherhood such a big catalyst for it's just massive, isn't it? I love when you mentioned as well. I think it's Gorman's work, the culture of appreciation, because that's always been on my mind as well in, I find that so many people are so resistant to saying thank you to their partners, because they're doing, you know, caregiving work that they should be doing. But I also feel there's so much value in just appreciating one another. Yeah. So all of the things like I always think, when I had when I was at home with the kids a lot, and my husband will come come home, and he'd be like, the house looks amazing. And it's just that was a little message of appreciation, like, Hey, I see you I see your work, because it's really invisible usually. Okay, so one thing that comes up a lot when our nervous systems are a little bit dysregulated is getting angry, whether that's whether that's towards our partner or towards our kids. We all do it. We all go there. So can we speak about this? And I'm reluctant to use the term mum rage because I think it's so I don't know what problem I have with it.
Yara 27:30
It feels like it's just about mums. That's what I have the problem. I feel like it's really, and I've seen people speak about it in another way, like speak of it as like, well, it gives it's a different thing. And I'm like, it's not a different thing. There are different reasons why we feel angry, that the actual experience of rage or anger is universal. We all have that.
Fiona Weaver 27:52
And perhaps just because it's somebody's first experience of it in motherhood, because there are so many Yeah, triggers and overwhelming things.
Yara 28:00
That's right. And I really feel like when we use that term monrage It sounds like it's a problem that mothers have, you know, like, there's no dad rage, who talks about that rage. No one says that, but I've my dad, my husband is right. No one says that. So I think that and you know, when I've heard people talk about it in terms of oh, well, it gives us a way of talking about the factors that lead to us feeling that that angry, I think that we can just do that anyway, we can just talk about Yeah, anger and how we experienced that as mothers and what the reasons are for experiencing that at this particular time.
Fiona Weaver 28:38
Why do we feel anger in motherhood? Why Why does this come up for us in motherhood, when we haven't previously experienced the same level of anger?
Yara 28:47
Oh, goodness, there are so many reasons, but I'll try and touch on some of them here. So one of the reasons I think, well, probably the biggest reason initially is that many of us are experiencing sleep deprivation when we first become mothers. And when we are sleep deprived, our brains just don't function very well. When we are sleep deprived, we also often have high levels of cortisol active in our body, which means that we're actually already in an activated state. So we're already it puts us into a place where we can be in that fight or flight sympathetic activation, part of our nervous system. And so when we're already beginning kind of our day or the night already in that space, then it takes less for us to kind of flip right to get to that edge where we no longer feel in control of our anger. So I think that's one of the first things the other things is that I think that there there is a real struggle with I think mothers feeling like they are failing or that they are not enough and a lot of this comes back to the cultural standards that have that we kind of live within and that have been set for Mother's in terms of these very patriarchal intensive mothering kind of ideologies. Excuse me, I'm getting all crazy all of a sudden. But so yeah, these kind of intensive mothering ideologies that we have been socialized into. So when we come on, I guess when we sort of grow up in cultures where there is this intensive mothering ideology, it often means the subjugation of our own needs. And when we suppress our own needs, over time, we build resentment. And we, you know, further burden and overwhelm our nervous systems, and we end up extremely depleted. And we just have less resources available, basically, to manage the challenges that we experience in mothering. And I think before we become mothers, we probably have a lot of things that we can do coping strategies or techniques, maybe, or even, I wouldn't even say their techniques, but we just maybe live in a way that allows us to feel more replenished. So we can sleep, when we want to, we can wake up when we want to, we can take a break, when we want to we can, we have lots of social connection, because we have opportunity for that we can go out and party, we can take a holiday, whenever we want, we can exercise whenever we want. Like there are so many things that we do that actually allow us to stay regulated, when we become a mother, especially in that in that early period where we have a newborn, we just don't have access to those things anymore. Right? And so it makes a lot of sense, then that we start to feel overwhelmed and then end up in this in this anger space. Absolutely.
Fiona Weaver 31:38
Yeah, so it's kind of a it's anger is a secondary emotion, isn't it. So there's always something underlying
Yara 31:44
Absolutely, and I really, so I have an anger workshop that is available. And in that we talk about this concept of the anger iceberg. So the anger is what you see on the surface, but beneath it, there are often so many other emotions. So it can be stuff like loneliness, or feeling let down or feeling, you know, resentful, you know, things like that. But it can also be like the depletion of needs or needs that have not been met. And they both present needs in terms of like, I need time for myself, or I just need to have a shower, or I want to go for a walk or I just want to talk to a friend without being interrupted. And they can also be needs that come from a long time ago. So needs that were not met, you know, through our childhood, for example, can still be there influencing how we're perceiving what's happening in the world today. But also, we can also have unresolved anger from our childhood that we've never had a way of expressing, because may not have felt safe for us to be able to do that during those times.
Fiona Weaver 32:45
Yes, let's talk to that. Let's talk about the good girl
Yara 32:49
syndrome. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Good. Girls don't get angry. Absolutely. And quiet. Yeah, exactly. And I think that, yes, that is also one of the big reasons, I think, that so many people experience such an intense experience and anger in this mothering place. It's also because we have so many things in our lives to be angry about as women when and I'm really talking about if we're looking at things on a political level, in terms of the godown getting deep on this, if we're thinking about the kind of culture that we live in, we really live in this very patriarchal culture and society. And what that means, essentially, is that there is an A greater value based on masculine characteristics or ways of being in the world and ways of comparing ourselves through the world. And the ones those characteristics that are more feminine, are often seen as less than, and they're often seen as weaknesses. And they're often seen as things that need to be controlled in some kind of way. And so similarly, women are also seen in that way as well, because obviously, we embody more of these feminine ways of being and moving in the world. And so those parts of us that are like our emotional expression, and whether that's an emotional expression that is not pleasant for other people to be around is often seen as something that needs to be controlled in women only. Because when we think about anger in men, they're often when they display anger, they're often seen as being assertive or in control. Whereas women when they display anger are seen as out of control and irrational and emotional and all hysterical racks. Exactly. And so as a result of that, what happens is we learn from a really young age that anger is not an appropriate emotion to express. And that's from a cultural perspective. But also, if we're thinking about within our family dynamics, it may actually not be safe for us to express anger as well. So if we have parents who are very punitive, or who maybe have a lot of difficulty managing their own emotions, it may not feel that there is space for us to have anything other than pleasant emotion, or safe for us to express that like actually physically safe or emotionally safe. And so we suppress that. And so we may have had a whole life of emotional suppression in the area of anger, and then we'll get to mothering. Where there's no breaks 24/7 were depleted, right? Nutritionally were depleted in terms of sleep, our social connections can dry up, we have very lack of support for the things that we're meant to do. It's basically a recipe for disaster when it comes to anger, right. And I also just want to say that, you know, anger is absolutely associated with postnatal depression. And I will just say, depression in general. But I don't necessarily see it as like, if you if you are experiencing anger, then it's a it's a massive red sign about that. I actually think that, how do I describe, I think that anger is just one of the things that happens with depression, and suppression of anger and the feeling of like, hopelessness, because we cannot change our situation, which is, I think, what many mothers feel, because we were really, we can, we can, can feel locked in by the standards of our culture around what it means to be a mother. And then I think that, of course, that leads to depression, you know, a nervous system can only handle being activated in that sympathetic arm for so long before it actually goes and swings to the opposite and actually start to go into shutdown and boot is what depression is, right? And so I think that, yes, be aware that if you feel like you're in this kind of cycle, where you're constantly angry, you're not able to get control of it, and all the rest of it, then yeah, that may maybe go and speak to someone in that space. But I don't necessarily think it's always we may be more likely to go into that space of depression or other mental health issues if we don't get a handle on how we manage anger. And I also just want to say that when I talk about managing anger, I'm not talking about making anger go away. And I'm not talking about being like this Zen Mum, you know, like, I really I love the idea of parenting and conscious parenting and stuff. But I also feel like there is the most incredible amount of pressure to be perfect as a mother within those circles. And I also it's another set of expectations, isn't it huge? Yeah, I also think that it's a highly privileged perspective as well, because I think that many of us have not come from situations where that was actually modeled to us. And so we're coming to that with all of these expectations of what it looks like to be a good punches parent or good, respectful parent, without any imprinting around about how that feels in our body, or what that looks like to actually be behaving that way. Does that make sense? So we're kind of like, you know, it's, we're trying to figure it out as we go. And of course, we're gonna make lots of mistakes. But when we make mistakes, and we think that buffet is right, because we're not meeting that standard at all, because we're not meeting the standard of mothering. Or because we're not, or because potentially, oh, my god, we're like, my mother, or my father or whatever. And I'm going to traumatize my kids. And I never wanted to do that, and all this sort of stuff. So yeah, just coming back to that, I think that the conscious parenting thing is like, I think some of the pillars around that are really beautiful, and I think, are wonderful to keep in mind in terms of like, okay, these are sort of Medallia system. But we need flexibility within there to know that we're human as well. And so Being human means that we have emotions, and we do absolutely need those expressing it. There is nothing wrong with your children seeing you be angry, as long as it's not terrifying them. Right. And those opportunities, when we become angry are opportunities to teach our children how to manage anger, and how to communicate anger. So being able to say, things that I do a lot is like, I will raise my voice and say, I'm starting to feel really angry. I'm very frustrated, you know, I don't feel like I'm being listened to. And this is a thing that's very important right now, right? And when I start to raise my voice, and I start saying, I'm feeling really angry, and I'll say things like, I'm feeling fire in my body, and I'm feeling tingly. And I say things like that, because I want them to identify as well for themselves that that is what it feels like for them to feel angry. And maybe maybe that's what you notice in your own body, too. Right? And so that's a way of teaching them to notice that they're moving towards that space of being angry. And then what do we do after that? Right? So for me, actually, this morning, I did a lot of breath work while I was just doing breakfast, and while I was doing whatever, I just really could feel this sense of frustration building in Maine, it was nothing specific that they'd done. It's just kind of the intensity of morning. So I was really doing my breath work. As I mentioned earlier, I did more in the car and really did that benefit of it that stuff and talking to my inner child is I could notice that that was happening but that takes time to reflect and often In the beginning, it means we have the outburst. And then we reflect later. Right? Yeah, and that's totally okay. And that's something that I really want people who are listening to understand that it's okay to, you know, do something that you then recognize is out of alignment with your value. And to come back and say, Hey, actually, I made a mistake. Totally, totally fine. I actually had a little bit off topic, but still sort of around this. I was out yesterday at a cafe, and there was this woman talking to me. And she had, like a newborn in a pram, and she also had like a three year old or something like that there, the three year old has really worked really hard to get this mother's attention, which she just was not getting here. And it culminated with her pushing down and His plan and nearly catapulting the infant out of the pram and of course, the mother has reacted with a lot of anger, and pick the girl up and placed her down on the floor away and said, you're having some timeout or something and sit there and think about what you've done, right? Anyway, all while while this was happening, she's muttering to herself about how possibly that's not the right choice of action. So that was really interesting. She was sort of going like, that's probably not the right thing to do. Like, she was in this like, cognitive dissonance about real time. Yeah, what she had done, but and what I think was happening for her was that she didn't want to lose face with the child. So she didn't, even though she was aware of that she didn't stop what she was doing. And what I was observing in that was like, what I thought to myself was like, It's okay for your kids to know that you made a mistake. It's completely okay. So in in, you know, for her, she was responding with anger, which was really, which was reasonable. There was a threat to her infant, right. But she may have responded in a way that maybe it wasn't ideal, right. So but that's fine. We could just go back. It's a beautiful lesson for our children to learn that they don't. They're not always right, either. They're gonna make it's such a nice opportunity, isn't
Fiona Weaver 41:55
it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think going going, yeah. I was just going to say about in rupture and repair when we do repair with our kids, it's okay to change your mind and still be in charge. Yes. So it's not like, Oh, my God, I shouldn't have done that. I'm so sorry. I feel so bad when you forgive me. That's a weak repair. But we can say, I didn't behave, how I probably should have back then I was feeling really frustrated. And I probably snapped. And that might might have felt a bit scary for you. Sorry. And then you come back. Yeah, that's all it needs to be it don't you don't need to dwell in it with them. Yeah. Because it kind of takes you out of being in charge. Yeah, absolutely. So what are some practical ways that we can nurture our nervous systems?
Yara 42:40
Hmm, beautiful. So one of the ways that by love to do that is through the practice of breathwork. And the reason for that is because using the breath, we have direct access to the nervous system, it's one of the most direct ways that we can do that. So when we intentionally change the way that we breathe, we actually activate our nervous system and we activate our vagus nerve. So we can actually breathe in ways that activate our sympathetic nervous system to actually activate that, that fight or flight. And that's useful to do when we are maybe in depression states or when we are in very flat states. And we need to get ourselves get our bodies moving, so that we can engage in a particular behavior, for example, but often in in the anger space, what we're doing is we're actually trying to help our nervous system move out of that fight or flight space. And when we are in fight or flight, what is also happening is that there is a disconnection between our emotion part of the brain, the limbic area, and the part of the brain, which is our prefrontal cortex that actually does all of the like problem solving, and rational kind of thinking, if that makes sense. And so what we actually need to do when we are in a moment of anger, is actually calm down our nervous system so that there can be communication between those two parts of the brain again, and then once we we've got that online, the communication is reestablished, then we can go into repair efforts and all of that sort of thing, which we just can't do when we're just flooded, essentially, right. And so in those moments when we have when we've had a big outburst, the in the moment stuff that I often say to people is we want to slow down outbreath in particular. So what we want to do is we want to really take a big, full and expansive rare so we're not doing like rapid breathing, we're actually just we're actually just taking a very big expansive breath in where we're really trying to get our diaphragm to really take in as much air as we possibly can. And then we want us to slow down our breath. So that's where we really place intention on the out breath. And one of the easy ways to do this and it involves vocalization as well. So it means we extra activate the vagus nerve which allows us to feel more calm. is to actually use the vocalization of Zoo. And so I'll just do an example of that what it sounds like is like this so I could go on for a bit longer, but that's a
Fiona Weaver 45:18
sound that actually just felt so nice to listen to.
Yara 45:21
Yeah. So it's a very, and we want it to be like in this deeper sort of tone, there's some incredible research actually on the breath, and on the arm chant, and about the amount of time that that actually takes is the perfect amount of time to actually calm down the nervous system and activate our vagal nerve. So similarly, doing that Vu sound actually does that as well. So that's a beautiful tool that you can use in the moment, my kids actually use that too now, which is really cool. So so that's something you can use in the moment, you can also take yourself away from that situation, that's another way so and the idea when we do that is to actually provide ourselves with an opportunity for grounding. So whether that's, we go into the bedroom and take a moment to just, you know, connect with our body and touch our body to calm ourselves down, or whether that might be that we go outside and stand in the sunshine with our fan, feet rather planted in the earth, right. So that's a really beautiful strategy. So that's, in the moment strategies to calm the nervous system down. And then we would go ahead and do our repair, or maybe in a child kind of affirmations or whatever we might need to do in the moment. What I use as my number one, for managing anger out of the moment, is a regular breathwork practice, when we have a regular breathwork practice, we're able to keep our nervous system in a flexible state. So we are resetting or rewiring our nervous system to come back down to here so that we're starting each day here. And then we can move quickly up and down. When I have periods in my life where I'm not doing regular breathwork. It's like chalk and cheese. I'm literally an unhinged woman, compared to when I'm doing this as a regular practice. And if you have another practice that feels very regulating for you, then go ahead and do it. But the breath is so beautiful, because it's direct access to the nervous system. Yeah, right. And because also, by doing this on a regular basis, we're also getting practice for using breath in the moment when we are flooded, as well. So that's a really good thing as well. The next thing I just wanted to add is, we need a way to actually release anger from our body. So we actually hold emotional energy in our body and in ourselves. And we do need a way to actually release that there are a few somatic practices that I go through in the workshop that I have for that. But one of the number one ways is just to have a good rage, like when your children are not there to actually just let it out. And again, we're not necessarily looking for high pitch screaming, we're looking for deep guttural, kind of like deep in the soul type of energy, right? And take time to do that when you are alone. And you may even want to use a pillow that you punch or whatever. And the way that I do that is I ground myself with breath first. And then I focus on where in my body, I'm feeling angry, and maybe some of the things that have caused me to feel angry recently. And then I channeled that into my voice and I channeled that into my body with movement. And then I'll have a burst of doing that. And then I'll take a moment to hold my, my heart space and just say, How am I feeling now? Is there anything left, and I'll just keep doing that until it feels like I'm empty of that sort of feeling. And I can't tell you how powerful that is, for so many reasons. There's this somatic s aspect and the nervous system regulation aspect, but also for us as women to actually give ourselves permission to be fully angry and to be empowered in that experience as well. I think that it's profound. And so those are some of the ways that you may like to consider working with your anger.
Fiona Weaver 49:08
Oh, that's amazing, so much goal in that. And I I don't think I've ever done that where I just go to a room or have time to myself and just be really physically overtly loudly angry. Gonna give it a red hot crack. I
Yara 49:23
feel so good.
Fiona Weaver 49:25
It sounds like when I was giving birth, like it's that same primal Yes. Release. Yes. I never expected that is exactly animal. Yes. Yeah.
Yara 49:35
It's like, I know what you mean. In those moments. You're thinking I remember myself going like who is making that sound? Yeah. Yeah, and that's exactly the kind of sound that comes when you do this. It's like this primal kind of scream and expression of anger. And obviously we don't do that with our kids around because that can be a bit concerning for them. A little bit scary. Yeah, but But you know, with my kids, my daughter in particular responds really well for that. So I speak about that with her because I see she becomes quite aggressive when she's frustrated and all the rest of it, she just gets punchy and wild. And I will actually take her outside and be like, let's just shout it out, which is screaming out. And I've actually seen her stop within an interaction with her brother that was escalating and walk outside and go and shout, Oh, amazing on her own, and she's three. So, you know, for me, I feel like that's beautiful restorative work, where she's feeling empowered in her anger, but she's also in control of it. She's able to go and do something with it that isn't causing terror to other people.
Fiona Weaver 50:43
Yeah, that's incredible. Oh, it's so nice. Those little parenting moments. So you're like, Mama.
Yara 50:50
on, hold on to that. And those are like, glimmers, right. Those are things we want to remember, when we're having really hard times we're actually doing all right.
Fiona Weaver 50:58
It's a long term game. Yeah, yeah,
Yara 51:00
absolutely. All right. Thank
Fiona Weaver 51:01
you so much, Yara. I could keep talking to you. And I really want to keep talking to you. But I have to wrap it up. Thank you so much for today. I so appreciate you being here. And you have so much wisdom and what's the word I'm looking for? You just a real life human as well. So authentic and grounded and down to earth and it shows in everything you do. So thank you so much for being you.
Yara 51:24
All. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so glad to have connected with you. And thank you for having me on your beautiful beautiful, beautiful person yourself ah
Fiona Weaver 51:32
stuff. Okay, so you have an anger workshop as well that I want to direct people to because I do be amazing.
Yara 51:38
I do. So I will share the link with you for that. And I'm also really happy to offer a discount for your listeners as well. So I will organize a code for that and pass that on to you and you can pass it on to whoever is listening. Brilliant working on that. Amazing.
Fiona Weaver 51:57
Thank you so much, Yara.
Yara 51:59
No worries at all. Thanks for having me fee.
Fiona Weaver 52:01
Thank you so much for listening to mama chatters if you enjoyed this episode, let's continue the conversation on Instagram at MAMA matters.au. Be sure to share this app with your family and friends. And don't forget if you liked it, please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again and I will see you next time.
